How to teach evolution & Evidence for Creationism II - Page 7

Curubethion · 10-22-2005, 09:28 PM

Eugenics is basically humans taking evolution into their own hands...trying to "perfect" the human race.

And yes, I would link atheistic evolution with racism. After all, if I have different skin color from the guy over there, maybe I'm more evolved than him and therefore superior, right?

Count Comfect · 10-22-2005, 09:47 PM

No. No. No.

Eugenics is humans who have no bleeping idea what evolution IS or MEANS using a radical misinterpretation to destroy the lives or futures of other people. It has jack to do with evolution science.

And as to your imputation regarding racism, I believe a) racism has existed long before evolution came around (often mixed very closely with theistic beliefs, if you want to get into that) and b) it has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. You are no more evolved than I am, no matter who you are, because we are alive at the same time and hence are coequal on the evolutionary scale. We are the same species, at the same time, undergoing the same or close enough environmental stresses. Evolution DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY at the level of individual creatures. Evolution does not and will not give a cover to those who wish to discriminate. It is a blind, random natural process that acts on populations.

Curubethion · 10-22-2005, 10:52 PM

Yeah, but it is used sometimes as a cover. I'm not saying that it's a valid cover. Racism wasn't caused by evolution; evolution only exacerbated it. Darwin forgot to check the social implications of his theory.

Count Comfect · 10-22-2005, 11:26 PM

Right, and God forgot to check the social implications of "you are my Chosen People" and "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" - I'm sorry, but "it is used sometimes as a cover" doesn't mean it should be brought up in a discussion about teaching and evidence. I doubt there is one idea out there that deals with differences between creatures in any capacity that hasn't been used as a cover for racism.

**Nurvingiel** · 10-23-2005, 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Yeah, but it is used sometimes as a cover. I'm not saying that it's a valid cover. Racism wasn't caused by evolution; evolution only exacerbated it. Darwin forgot to check the social implications of his theory.

It's not up to scientists to worry that their theories may or may not have social implications. Scientists study and research, and report their findings in an objective manner. If their study stands up to scrutiny by their scientific peers, then their findings may be published and read by society at large (or at least, the scientific community).

If people make idiotic statements based on the scientist's theory, it isn't his fault. What's Darwin going to do about racist morons who are trying to justify their hate? The poor guy is dead, he can't hunt them all down and beat them with a baseball bat until they stop misusing his theory. The poor guy is dead!

Spock · 10-23-2005, 11:10 AM

Are you sure "Eugenics" isn't the study of Eugene?

**Nurvingiel** · 10-23-2005, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

Are you sure "Eugenics" isn't the study of Eugene?

Hee.

That Eugene guy, he's got some funny ideas...

Actually I still have no idea what it really is.

rohirrim TR · 10-23-2005, 05:38 PM

this is "eugenics" according to the dictionary

Quote:

Originally Posted by m-w.com

Main Entry: eu·gen·ics
Pronunciation: yu-'je-niks
Function: noun plural but singular or plural in construction
: a science that deals with the improvement (as by control of human mating) of hereditary qualities of a race or breed

Count Comfect · 10-23-2005, 06:57 PM

Yes. That is the definition (or, as from American Heritage Dictionary) " The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding."

The definition looks harmless, until you realize what that last bit means - here in the US, it has covered (ala the Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell) sterilization of the "mentally inferior", while in Germany it once went so far as killing that sort of people so they could not breed. And it is, interestingly enough, in that same clause that it deviates from evolution - an uncontrolled, natural process - by imposing a "direction" (for "improvement") and "control" on it.

Insidious Rex · 10-23-2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

Right, and God forgot to check the social implications of "you are my Chosen People" and "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

Count that’s classic.

Personally I think gravity is racist against fat people and we should therefore discredit it…

But on eugenics: I think it should be further pointed out that eugenics is actually directly counter to evolution in practice because it is used as a tool AGAINST nature and TOWARD a biased outcome. I.E all blonde haired blue eyed aryans with good goose stepping ability. Well guess what. The environment may not favor such things. Hitler showed how counter productive the concept of a creating a "master race" was when Jesse Owens came over and kicked the ass of every german "super athlete" he could put against him. And lest we bring up Joe Lewis and Max Schmeling. The idea that eugenics is somehow the same as or even parallel to evolution is preposterous.

Curubethion · 10-23-2005, 11:24 PM

And back to "evidence for creationism"...(isn't that the thread's title?

)

Can any of you atheistic evolutionists point out the difference between a corpse and a human without referring to anything other than the spiritual world? After all, aren't both comprised of atoms?

This relates to the thread in that it supports existence of something other than physical, allowing for the possibility of a designer.

Count Comfect · 10-23-2005, 11:34 PM

neurons firing, m'dear Curubethion. brain activity, breath intake, pulse. Same way doctors distinguish

Curubethion · 10-23-2005, 11:37 PM

All of which are simply bunches of molecules existing, according to atheistic evolution. Pulse is simply the movement of molecules.
On a molecular, atheistic level, there is no difference between me and a corpse. However, if you allow for the spiritual, it easily accounts for the presence of life, of personality, of emotion...
BTW, what is life, while we're at it?

Count Comfect · 10-23-2005, 11:43 PM

That last question is metaphysics, which I won't touch.

And science is certainly cognizant of the difference between motion and lack of motion - a heart pumping is NOT the same as a heart not pumping, neurons firing are NOT the same as gray matter decaying, and inspiration (breathing in) is NOT the same as lungs simply existing. Science does not merely consider things at the molecular level (and even at that level, moving blood is different from stationary blood) - it merely declines to consider supernatural forces, as being by their very 'nature' (maybe I should use essence) separate from the natural world. On a scientific level, and even within that on a molecular level, there are processes (I haven't even mentioned cell division) going on within you that distinguish you from a corpse.

Curubethion · 10-23-2005, 11:45 PM

They only involve specific levels of energy. A cell dividing is composed of millions of organic molecules and atoms. The only thing that makes it different from a dead cell is the presence of more energy. Energy isn't absent from "dead" matter; after all, all atoms have electrons and therefore energy. We just can't see the level of energy.

Count Comfect · 10-23-2005, 11:49 PM

There is still a difference. I fail to see what you're driving at (or rather, how you plan to get there). If science sees a difference between alive and dead, what reason have you to specify what Kind of difference it must be? And it isn't just "levels of energy", it has to do with organization (acknowledged by science) and complexity (acknowledged by science). As well as processes that don't go on in a dead cell - mitosis, photosynthesis, the breakdown of complex sugars into ATP (Adenosine TriPhosphate) etc.

Curubethion · 10-23-2005, 11:52 PM

I'm trying to drive at the existence of a soul and therefore the existence of a spiritual realm. This sends atheistic evolution down the drain by making ID or theistic evolution very possible.

Count Comfect · 10-23-2005, 11:54 PM

I know, that's why I clarified as to "how you're going to get there from here." Because, given how much scientific effort has been directed at distinguishing between "alive" and "dead" for the coroner's report, I don't think you'll get to a soul by attempting to show science can't distinguish between those two.

brownjenkins · 10-24-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curubethion

Can any of you atheistic evolutionists point out the difference between a corpse and a human without referring to anything other than the spiritual world? After all, aren't both comprised of atoms?

what you are forgetting is that humans are not just one living thing... we are a collection of millions of living things, and what makes us "alive" is those pieces working together... even when a human is killed, many individual cells live on for a good bit of time before "dying"... so life is not gone for quite a while, just the "life" we are use to seeing (all the parts working together)

that is the difference, not the atoms but the interrelationships between them (which are broken up when people die)

Insidious Rex · 10-24-2005, 11:14 AM

Ever smell a dead body? That right there is chemical reactions you dont get in life. You really think there is no difference between living and dead on strictly a physical level? Come on now.

We are all composed of star dust. This is a fact. This is also completely irrelevant of any spiritual aspect of our nature.

10-22-2005, 09:28 PM	#121
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	Eugenics is basically humans taking evolution into their own hands...trying to "perfect" the human race. And yes, I would link atheistic evolution with racism. After all, if I have different skin color from the guy over there, maybe I'm more evolved than him and therefore superior, right? __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-22-2005, 10:52 PM	#123
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	Yeah, but it is used sometimes as a cover. I'm not saying that it's a valid cover. Racism wasn't caused by evolution; evolution only exacerbated it. Darwin forgot to check the social implications of his theory. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-22-2005, 11:26 PM	#124
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	Right, and God forgot to check the social implications of "you are my Chosen People" and "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" - I'm sorry, but "it is used sometimes as a cover" doesn't mean it should be brought up in a discussion about teaching and evidence. I doubt there is one idea out there that deals with differences between creatures in any capacity that hasn't been used as a cover for racism. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-23-2005, 11:10 AM	#126
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Are you sure "Eugenics" isn't the study of Eugene? __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

10-23-2005, 06:57 PM	#129
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	Yes. That is the definition (or, as from American Heritage Dictionary) " The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding." The definition looks harmless, until you realize what that last bit means - here in the US, it has covered (ala the Supreme Court case Buck v. Bell) sterilization of the "mentally inferior", while in Germany it once went so far as killing that sort of people so they could not breed. And it is, interestingly enough, in that same clause that it deviates from evolution - an uncontrolled, natural process - by imposing a "direction" (for "improvement") and "control" on it. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-22-2005, 09:47 PM	#122
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	No. No. No. Eugenics is humans who have no bleeping idea what evolution IS or MEANS using a radical misinterpretation to destroy the lives or futures of other people. It has jack to do with evolution science. And as to your imputation regarding racism, I believe a) racism has existed long before evolution came around (often mixed very closely with theistic beliefs, if you want to get into that) and b) it has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. You are no more evolved than I am, no matter who you are, because we are alive at the same time and hence are coequal on the evolutionary scale. We are the same species, at the same time, undergoing the same or close enough environmental stresses. Evolution DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY at the level of individual creatures. Evolution does not and will not give a cover to those who wish to discriminate. It is a blind, random natural process that acts on populations.

10-23-2005, 11:24 PM	#131
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	And back to "evidence for creationism"...(isn't that the thread's title? ) Can any of you atheistic evolutionists point out the difference between a corpse and a human without referring to anything other than the spiritual world? After all, aren't both comprised of atoms? This relates to the thread in that it supports existence of something other than physical, allowing for the possibility of a designer. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-23-2005, 11:34 PM	#132
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	neurons firing, m'dear Curubethion. brain activity, breath intake, pulse. Same way doctors distinguish __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-23-2005, 11:37 PM	#133
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	All of which are simply bunches of molecules existing, according to atheistic evolution. Pulse is simply the movement of molecules. On a molecular, atheistic level, there is no difference between me and a corpse. However, if you allow for the spiritual, it easily accounts for the presence of life, of personality, of emotion... BTW, what is life, while we're at it? __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-23-2005, 11:43 PM	#134
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	That last question is metaphysics, which I won't touch. And science is certainly cognizant of the difference between motion and lack of motion - a heart pumping is NOT the same as a heart not pumping, neurons firing are NOT the same as gray matter decaying, and inspiration (breathing in) is NOT the same as lungs simply existing. Science does not merely consider things at the molecular level (and even at that level, moving blood is different from stationary blood) - it merely declines to consider supernatural forces, as being by their very 'nature' (maybe I should use essence) separate from the natural world. On a scientific level, and even within that on a molecular level, there are processes (I haven't even mentioned cell division) going on within you that distinguish you from a corpse. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-23-2005, 11:45 PM	#135
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	They only involve specific levels of energy. A cell dividing is composed of millions of organic molecules and atoms. The only thing that makes it different from a dead cell is the presence of more energy. Energy isn't absent from "dead" matter; after all, all atoms have electrons and therefore energy. We just can't see the level of energy. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-23-2005, 11:49 PM	#136
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	There is still a difference. I fail to see what you're driving at (or rather, how you plan to get there). If science sees a difference between alive and dead, what reason have you to specify what Kind of difference it must be? And it isn't just "levels of energy", it has to do with organization (acknowledged by science) and complexity (acknowledged by science). As well as processes that don't go on in a dead cell - mitosis, photosynthesis, the breakdown of complex sugars into ATP (Adenosine TriPhosphate) etc. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-23-2005, 11:52 PM	#137
Curubethion Fenway Ranger, Lord of Red Sox Nation Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: College! Posts: 1,976	I'm trying to drive at the existence of a soul and therefore the existence of a spiritual realm. This sends atheistic evolution down the drain by making ID or theistic evolution very possible. __________________ Adventure...betrayal...heroism... Atharon: where heroes are born. My wife once said to me—when I'd been writing for ten or fifteen years—that I could always go back to being a nuclear engineer. And I said to her, 'Harriet, would you let someone who quit his job to go write fantasy anywhere near your nuclear reactor? I wouldn't!' (Robert Jordan)

10-23-2005, 11:54 PM	#138
Count Comfect Word Santa Claus Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 2,922	I know, that's why I clarified as to "how you're going to get there from here." Because, given how much scientific effort has been directed at distinguishing between "alive" and "dead" for the coroner's report, I don't think you'll get to a soul by attempting to show science can't distinguish between those two. __________________ Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall.

10-24-2005, 11:14 AM	#140
Insidious Rex Quasi Evil Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Maryland, US Posts: 4,634	Ever smell a dead body? That right there is chemical reactions you dont get in life. You really think there is no difference between living and dead on strictly a physical level? Come on now. We are all composed of star dust. This is a fact. This is also completely irrelevant of any spiritual aspect of our nature. __________________ "People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-24-2005 at 11:18 AM.

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