What has America become?

[hectorberlioz]

oh! the vast wide history of entmoot! ahhh... .
thats serious posting up there.
I dont think there is any post longer that juntels post up there.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by hectorberlioz
oh! the vast wide history of entmoot! ahhh... .
thats serious posting up there.
I dont think there is any post longer that juntels post up there.

Well entmoot now has a limit. NOt sure if it did before or what it was. I've posted two and three page posts which would compare if they were in one post. That's 10,000 - 15,000 characters.

If we're going to post in here - we should keep it on topic.

[LutraMage]

What has American become? Er.....Great?

[juntel]

"If we're going to post in here - we should keep it on topic."

hu...? wha...?
rrrrrhmmmph...
( goes back to sleep )

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by juntel
"If we're going to post in here - we should keep it on topic."

hu...? wha...?
rrrrrhmmmph...
( goes back to sleep )

So we have waken an old poster to this thread. The dead walk again.

[Jonathan]

Juntel, did you subscribe to this thread or what? You haven't posted here since 2001 and when the thread is suddenly 'reopened', you show up

[hectorberlioz]

wow! and we thought juntel was gone forever...
oops..off topic...

[Count Comfect]

Hmm... I didn't know this topic existed. But this seems absolutely on topic for it.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...5-10-nsa_x.htm

I always thought I lived in a country that actually protected basic liberties. The US government has been collecting information about the calling habits of tens of millions of Americans, including domestic calls. No actual eavesdropping has, supposedly, taken place, although since they told us last year that they weren't even collecting this information, I don't know how far to believe it. But who you are calling and when you are calling them - that is being monitored. Cell phones and land lines. This is a) unconstitutional and b) illegal. The administration says it is neither, but saying it doesn't make it so. Even if it were to be narrowly constitutional, which I doubt, it is clearly against various statutes about the legal scope of NSA and CIA authority without court approval (which does not seem to have come in these cases). This is far worse than anything Richard Nixon did; it is far worse for civil liberties in the long term than anything any president has done.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I don't know about being the worse thing any president has done but I agree it's wrong,(another bigger but) BUT; the American people asked for it.

*doesn't want to get involved in a debate*

The people wanted something done so 9/11 doesn't happen again, but we elected the dumbest guy in the US to run the show. Whataya goin' to do? :shurgs: Blame yourself? (not meant at just you)

[Spock]

.....have we been attacked in the past four years??????

....at least I've not been subjected to 'finger waving' and empty threats.

[Count Comfect]

... The American people asked for it? I know, Faramir, you said *doesn't want to get into a debate*, but come on. Even those who voted AGAINST Bush didn't know this was going on the last time there was an election (me for instance). That's like saying a woman who marries a man who turns out to be an abuser "asked for it" because she married him.

We haven't been attacked in the last four years, no. Has this program had anything to do with it?

[Insidious Rex]

The very notion that because we havent had a second 9/11 justifies illegal spying on american citizens by its own government is absolutely frightening. The power of such a tool in the hands of ANY group of men is dangerous beyond any hijacked plane or suicide bomb. When this power is used against our own citizens will there still be people saying it was a great idea to put absolute power in the hands of the government? Never accept the statement "trust me to do the right thing" when it comes to your own government or you will sooner or later pay dearly for it.

Why do the same people who scream and cry about how the government is overstepping their bounds when they raise taxes a quarter percent to pay for public transportation are the very same ones who think its a nifty idea to give them the power to spy on us without any checks or balances?

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

Originally Posted by Spock

.....have we been attacked in the past four years??????

....at least I've not been subjected to 'finger waving' and empty threats.

No idea what this means.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

... The American people asked for it? I know, Faramir, you said *doesn't want to get into a debate*, but come on. Even those who voted AGAINST Bush didn't know this was going on the last time there was an election (me for instance). That's like saying a woman who marries a man who turns out to be an abuser "asked for it" because she married him.

My only point was, the American people want to feel safe and 'we'(I didn't vote for him either) elected Bush to make the decisions and I think he's running out of ideas. Surprise, surprise. I agree it's wrong and nothing good will come of it, but like I said 'whataya goin' to do?' That weird guy down at the phone company knows who you call. I guess the government does too now.

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

My only point was, the American people want to feel safe and 'we'(I didn't vote for him either) elected Bush to make the decisions and I think he's running out of ideas. Surprise, surprise. I agree it's wrong and nothing good will come of it, but like I said 'whataya goin' to do?' That weird guy down at the phone company knows who you call. I guess the government does too now.

Yes, but "feeling safe" and "being spied on by our own government" aren't actually the same. No one asked for this. And I'm a lot more afraid of the government knowing who I called than some crank at the phone company (who, remember, can get fired if he abuses that information).

[Giroth]

i'm sorta ashamed to be an american nowadays...most americans have become so selfish, so self-superior, its annoying...dang i wanna move to japan someday hahaha

[Lief Erikson]

I'm going to take devil's advocate position and argue for a while here in favor of the spying program. I don't yet have my views firmly settled on this law, but I've been researching aspects of it (particularly congressional oversight) in depth for a college class on debate, and I'd like to get into it here and see some of the arguments really discussed.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

But who you are calling and when you are calling them - that is being monitored. Cell phones and land lines. This is a) unconstitutional and b) illegal. The administration says it is neither, but saying it doesn't make it so. Even if it were to be narrowly constitutional, which I doubt, it is clearly against various statutes about the legal scope of NSA and CIA authority without court approval (which does not seem to have come in these cases). This is far worse than anything Richard Nixon did; it is far worse for civil liberties in the long term than anything any president has done.

According to a Congressional Research Service Memo from 2006, the current administration is doing what almost every other administration in the past has done in times of war: test the limits of power. The Memo did not state that President Bush is going further than previous presidents have in his use of executive power, though it is true that some newspapers have said this is the case.

The spying program does not violate the Constitution. The Constitution states that the President is Commander in Chief of the armed forces. The armed forces in modern society are entirely dependent upon information. Information is wedded with force. Therefore the Constitution gives the President the right to create this spying program.

The spying program is legal. FISA states that wiretapping is illegal unless it has offered them a warrant, unless they have congressional authority or a statute that permits them to bypass this provision. President Bush had the congressional authority required. The statute required by FISA was the Warpowers Act, in which Congress gave him the right to use necessary force to combat terrorists. The word "force" should not be assumed to mean purely military force, for in the information age we now live in, good intelligence is the key to success in all military situations. The Supreme Court also has stated that this mandate permitted the president to put a United States citizen into detention. If the word "force" can mean detention of US citizens, it should also be able to mean spying on them.

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

According to a Congressional Research Service Memo from 2006, the current administration is doing what almost every other administration in the past has done in times of war: test the limits of power. The Memo did not state that President Bush is going further than previous presidents have in his use of executive power, though it is true that some newspapers have said this is the case.

The fact that presidents test the limits of power has no bearing on whether this specific program goes over those limits. It does. Besides, we are not at war. Alberto Gonzalez testified as much before the Judiciary Committee.

The spying program does not violate the Constitution. The Constitution states that the President is Commander in Chief of the armed forces. The armed forces in modern society are entirely dependent upon information. Information is wedded with force. Therefore the Constitution gives the President the right to create this spying program.

Wrong. First, regardless of any power given by any other clause of the constitution, this is in violation of the Fourth Amendment. Wiretapping without a warrant, even if the content of the call is not monitored, is unconstitutional. There was a case in the '40s.

Second, the power of the Commander-in-Chief is not unlimited. For a start, if you want to start parsing, he's only CinC of the "Army and Navy of the United States." The NSA is neither. Secondly, the constitution nowhere states that he may gather whatever information he wishes regardless of other guarantees. Third, armed forces are no more dependent on information now than they were then. Fourth, this program is a domestic spying program, and the military may not be used within the United States except to suppress rebellion or fend of invasion. Fifth, it is CONGRESS that may "make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces."

The spying program is legal. FISA states that wiretapping is illegal unless it has offered them a warrant, unless they have congressional authority or a statute that permits them to bypass this provision. President Bush had the congressional authority required. The statute required by FISA was the Warpowers Act, in which Congress gave him the right to use necessary force to combat terrorists. The word "force" should not be assumed to mean purely military force, for in the information age we now live in, good intelligence is the key to success in all military situations. The Supreme Court also has stated that this mandate permitted the president to put a United States citizen into detention. If the word "force" can mean detention of US citizens, it should also be able to mean spying on them.

Putting into detention IS a use of force, as the detainee would not be detained if force were not either used or implied. Spying is NOT a use of force, nor did Congress authorize spying. "good intelligence is the key to success" does not mean that spying=force. If you want to be able to spy, ask to be able to spy. Gonzalez admitted last time he got caught authorizing illegal and unconstitutional actions that they didn't ask because they wouldn't have gotten it. It is also key to military success that soldiers be paid, but the authorization of force is not a blank check to the military to pay as many soldiers as they want as much as they want. They need a SEPARATE law for that, and they'd need one for spying too. Just because something is important to using force doesn't mean that an authorization of force is also an authorization of that. The authorization of force is just what it says it is. You may use force; under the confines of whatever else you're constrained by, like your budget, the Constitution, and FISA.

The FISA court still applies. And even if it didn't, the Fourth Amendment requires probable cause to search anyone's "effects," under which category phone records certainly fall; and there has been no showing of probable cause.

Besides which, it is illegal under various privacy statutes for the phone companies to hand this information over: in turn, the government ASKING for the information becomes an accessory to the crime of turning it over, which is also illegal.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Giroth

i'm sorta ashamed to be an american nowadays...most americans have become so selfish, so self-superior, its annoying...dang i wanna move to japan someday hahaha

Good; go! You'll see how their society views outsiders.

[Nurvingiel]

Er yeah, Japan might not be the best country to visit if you want to avoid xenophobia and cultural elitism. Maybe Ireland would be more to your liking in that department, given what I know about those two countries.

EDIT: If you actually want to move to Japan, not just visit, you will most likely never be allowed to become a Japanese citizen. The USA is a lot better allowing immigrants into their country than Japan is.


And there has been some awesome necroposting in this thread. It really is a slice of Entmoot history. Gilthalion's post has got to be the longest post ever on Entmoot.


So, what has America become? I think it has become a country who is very vulnerable to natural disasters. I hope the administration works as hard to rectify this as they did to minimize vulnerability to terrorist attacks after 9/11.

Given how Bush's administration and his appointee Michael Brown handled the flooding in New Orleans, I'm not holding out much hope. I worry about our southerly neighbours sometimes because there is the potential for many thousands of lives to be lost, but this could be minimized if the right protections were put in place now.

The US economy seems to be in a spot of trouble right now. The Canadian dollar is worth ninety cents American! It hasn't been this high since the late 1970s. This is partly due to our own strong economy right now, but also because you guys are having a rough time at the moment. Your massive nine trillion dollar debt is probably not helping matters.

The spy program, I've gotta say, is a terrible idea. Spying on your own citizens, without a warrant, is never a good idea. Potential terrorist attacks are not even your biggest worry right now IMO! I'd be a lot more worried about a gargantuan debt, a wavering economy, and the threat of natural disasters. Priorities Mr. Bush, priorities.

The two major problems with the spy program are that it is very vulnerable to abuse, and whether it violates the Constitution or not, it does impinge upon basic rights for freedom of assembly. I'd say speaking on the phone with someone without fear of being spied upon by your own government definitely falls into that category. Freedom of assembly encompasses not only the right for groups of people to gather physically, but also to communicate with one another without redress, does it not?

Moving along, I'm so glad the softwood lumber dispute is over. Softwood lumber was the only aspect of NAFTA that wasn't working smoothly, but it has finally been resolved. We didn't quite get all our money back, but hey, in the interests of moving forward with valuable trade deals, we'll take the three billion dollars and move on.

My brother is working in New York state right now, and he worked in Pennsylvania last summer, which he enjoyed a great deal. My parents have travelled in Arizona, spending most of their time camping and in small towns - they had a wonderful time! They also had a blast in Oregon, where they made friends with a really neat couple, and they sitll keep in touch with them.

I think the USA is a really great country, with flaws yes, but those have been discussed ad nauseum in threads all over the internet. I'd like to rectify my own lack of travelling in this diverse country.

I really don't want this to become an America-bashing thread. Bashing the States sucks. How can you dismiss the country who brought us John Steinbeck, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, and Barbara Kingsolver?

^ rhetorical quesiton

[inked]

Well, Canada sure isn't letting us push 'em around anymore! They're building their own missiles for defense, right, Nurv?


America is 2% of the world population consuming 50% of the world's resources. Everybody wants to get here because it's the best place on the planet to be. They literally are dying to get here.

I know we do some things wrong. But you gotta admit the evidence is superb that we do a lot right!