07-06-2003, 07:00 PM | #121 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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Chance plays a big role in this.
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07-06-2003, 07:08 PM | #122 | ||
Elf Lord
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Those evidences actually helped to show a radiocarbon shift- a shift such as I already spoke about earlier, as being a possible cause for people's lifespan shrinking. They also help to demonstrate some of the fallicies in modern dating techniques. Also, I'd like to know what evidence you have that it would have taken millions and millions of discoveries for man to uncover metallurgy. I know that Egyptians were smelting iron ores in the year 4,000 BC, but I don't know when the simplest techniques of metallurgy were developed. Lead is a lot easier to smelt than iron. Based upon the rate of development that's visible in ironworking and development of different technologies from iron onward, though, it is possible to see that it's unlikely metallurgy was initiated earlier than 20,000 BC, at the earliest. |
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07-06-2003, 07:17 PM | #123 | |||
Elf Lord
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07-06-2003, 07:52 PM | #124 | |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
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I wouldn't say the website's serious or scientific though.
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07-06-2003, 08:37 PM | #125 |
Elf Lord
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I've just compared that diagram to the one in the World Book, and shown them to my Dad (a mathematician), and it does show exponential growth. Exponential growth rates sometimes vary, but they are exponential, nevertheless. The World Book version doesn't take the Flood into account, but it doesn't pass the year 2,000 BC, either. There is incongruency between the two diagrams up to the time of Christ, where the lines become the same.
Meanwhile, I don't see in that diagram (or the World Book one) the world population taking a decrease of any size worth recording. The diagram in The World Book shows a slow but constant increase until the year A.D. 500, when it starts to really move up fast. The rate of increase has always overall been a rate of increase though, by this diagram. At the year 2,000 BC, there are recorded in the World Book diagram to have been only 108,000,000 people. |
07-06-2003, 08:50 PM | #126 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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just for fun
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07-06-2003, 09:19 PM | #127 | |
Elf Lord
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50,000 years is an awefully short time for the human race to have developed into its current form, by evolutionary standards, and the average age limit of human beings being 10 years old seems very unlikely. It's in the early teens that kids begin to take sexual interest in each other. It doesn't seem likely that they'd be able to bear children then . . . women's sexual organs weren't even developed at that time! Much less could a handful of ten year olds for each bear the responsibility of leading and keeping a human race of children alive, in the face of massive competition from the animal world. And that without their developing much technology at all. Sorry . . . I shouldn't be critical of something that's just for fun .
Also, the technology rate doesn't always vary directly with the population, though population does tend to have a hand in it, in general terms. The U.S. has a lot more technology than China, despite our having less than half as much population. Isaac Newton made incredible scientific discoveries, and England wasn't the top of population either. Quote:
Well, I thank you all for trying to respond to this, though I think none of you have answered the difficulty effectively. Technology's increasing barely at all, and these quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Large deviations in radiocarbon dates in individual ancient sites: Tarim mummies: 4000 yr mummy and neighbor 6000 yr mummy Jericho: nomadic hunters remain in the same spot from 10,000 BC to 4,000 BC European cave art: unchanged between 30,000 BC and 5,000 BC. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ difficulties with our dating anyway all do point to a far shorter existance for humanity. Likewise, we cannot possibly have survived as a minor or endangered species on this planet for the millions of years of our existence here. Small species like that, limited by resources, get wiped out. And if we weren't small and our growth rate was increasing exponentially, as it always has (on the observed scale), then we would have had to have originated far more recently than is supposed. This theory is supported by the discrepancies I've observed on Page 2 in the radiocarbon amounts, and it explains away completely the lack of technology and necessary population for those vast tracts of time. I have as yet seen nothing that is convincing which fills up those periods of time, or supported by the visible, increasing population scale. These visible evidences do support the Biblical point of view and are in the general ballpark of the Biblical dates. At the same time, they support the Biblical longer ages. The same explanations have been reiterated a few times, and occasionally new ones come up with. Jonathan suggested that our population might not always have increased exponentially, Jerseydevil and Sheeana both suggested that technological development has actually happened in that period, and Cirdan has said it is explained because culture and distance have caused those differences. This last explanation simply falls flat because of the huge time lapse. But none of them work. Population always has increased exponentially (based upon what we observe and mathematics), and I have as yet seen no evidence for much technology during this time period. Meanwhile, the quotes I've given and the other evidence on Page 2 for incorrect dating, shows scientific evidence for the difficulties that face the evolution of mankind by the current theory. Visible evidence and facts fit the Biblical explanation much better. But now I'd like to move on- we've worn this subject down a lot. I'm going to watch a movie and then post on a different subject. Terribly sorry if this sounds arrogant . . . If anyone has new theories, please post them. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-06-2003 at 09:56 PM. |
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07-06-2003, 09:47 PM | #128 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Although these books are of course fictionalised - I would highly recommend reading Jean Auel's - The Earth's Children Series which Clan of the Cave Bear is the first. If you've only seen the movie - then you don't know anything about the book. It shows a good representation of what we know about past man and what life what like back then. This is also interesting - this is modern man trying to figure out how they cooked... Quote:
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07-06-2003, 11:16 PM | #129 | ||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I think your not taking infant mortality into account. Also, I think they were saying 50,000 years in it's current form, Homo Sapiens sapiens. I thought you would like the population chart that starts with two people. Quote:
You need to think in terms of populations, not nations. National boundaries do not preclude the exchange of ideas. Think instead of oceans, mountains, etc as inhibitors of the exchange of ideas. Native Americans, Aborigines, New Guineans, etc. were quite separated from Eurasian populations and their technologies until global navigation became commonplace. Quote:
There would need to be some motivation for innovation. Hunters and gatherers with plenty of game have no need of invention. It is also a great assumption that, without language, anthing other than basic tool making is possible. How long would you say it should take to learn to speak, create words, and have that language esablish itself in a population large enough to sustain any kind of specialized technology? difficulties with our dating anyway all do point to a far shorter existance for humanity. Likewise, we cannot possibly have survived as a minor or endangered species on this planet for the millions of years of our existence here. Small species like that, limited by resources, get wiped out. And if we weren't small and our growth rate was increasing exponentially, as it always has (on the observed scale), then we would have had to have originated far more recently than is supposed. This theory is supported by the discrepancies I've observed on Page 2 in the radiocarbon amounts, and it explains away completely the lack of technology and necessary population for those vast tracts of time. I have as yet seen nothing that is convincing which fills up those periods of time, or supported by the visible, increasing population scale. These visible evidences do support the Biblical point of view and are in the general ballpark of the Biblical dates. At the same time, they support the Biblical longer ages. Quote:
The subjective view of what technologies are significant requires bias. The cultures that first developed tools, agriculture, and language made far greater leaps than say the invention of the electric can opener. While it is easy to say that primative cultures did little inventing, it is impossible to prove. Many materials used by primative peoples known to us do not preserve. Finally, if this question does not occur in a vacuum. There is a good deal of data that supports the existence of early man in a primative, yet quite adapted state, that for some cultures, continued tright into the modern era. If it works it does need new inovations. The important question is not "Why didn't they do it sooner?" but rather "Why did they do it at all?"
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-07-2003, 12:34 AM | #130 |
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So Jersey, what if the sunset were there to please the eye? Just there to cause us to wonder if there really WAS a God? It's just a theory.
And you're absolutely right. I have not been supporting my evidence with books, but even when someone DOES present you with perfectly good information YOU DON'T LISTEN. So my evidence would not make a difference to you. You'd find another way to refute it. Dinosaurs evolved into birds? What is your evidence for that? In all my lifetime I have NEVER seen a descendant of a reptile with feathers on it's body. And don't tell me it would take a long time. I KNOW that...which is exactly what is so confusing. I mean a reptile long ago might have had a baby with a defect of somesort...and as time went on the descendants of that reptile became more and more...evolved, and better so to speak through survival of the fittest, because a reptile with wings could escape better than a reptile without them...so why is it that I don't see a transitional descendant of that reptile today? The flood DID leave marks. It's called sedimentary rock, and it is found over all the earth. And sediment, unless I am mistaken is formed when layers of different things like mud, sand, rocks, pebbles etc build up on top of each other. And it can happen over time, but it can also happen QUICKLY...and rivers, or any water for that matter carry stuff like that...it's called the rivers load. What I don't understand is WHAT is so hard to believe about a world wide flood as a world wide drought caused by a meteor or something? Please tell me that without using that tone of "What a pill" I know I am a pill. I wasn't saying the evolutionists should shut up, just to be a BIT more respectful, and open minded to what WE have to say for a change. You seem to want US to do that, but you don't want to listen to what WE have to say, and to LOOK into it in DEPTH. You might actually find something you like in the Bible, and I might find something interesting in Darwins Origin of Species. Cheers, Sam.
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07-07-2003, 01:00 AM | #131 | ||||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Sorry Sam - byut you really have NO idea what you are talking about.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 07-07-2003 at 01:04 AM. |
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07-07-2003, 01:07 AM | #132 | |||
Elf Lord
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Judging by the exponentially increasing scale, even if, as Cirdan says, it becomes nigh flat as we approach its source, this is an incredibly vast amount of time. And as yet we still have no evidence of any jumps or drops in this number. The exponential rate just doesn't go that flat, for that long. Besides, we have information that these early humans were in multiple places of the world and weren't a terribly minor species. Again, that seriously disputes exponential growth. Quote:
Indians and white men didn't have to know one another's languages to make trades of weapons for furs, and things like that. In some instances they had interpreters, but in others they didn't. These trades were beneficial for both parties, and which also imparted technology. Sign language also is pretty universal, and can be of great assistance in trade or learning. Captivity in warfare is another thing that causes languages to expand. As one group grows (and human groups do grow very fast), it gains contact with other groups. Mankind can tend to be a very warlike race, and various groups can beat other groups into submission. Slavery has been very common since incredibly early times in our history. It doesn't seem at all implausible that this existed 2 million years ago as well. With slavery, people are forced into other groups, and frequently learn the language. |
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07-07-2003, 01:14 AM | #133 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(Hi people! Wow, 7 pages since I started the thread ... I have some catching up to do. We had a great 4th of July block party, and my daughter had her bday party, too. I'll join in when I catch up on the thread, prob. Monday afternoon.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-07-2003, 01:31 AM | #134 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Here is a site Alaska Science Forum: Dinosaurs
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This is also something people might be interested in. It is a creationist site - people can look at it and say why it does or doesn't make sense. Jesus, Dinosaurs and more
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-07-2003, 01:33 AM | #135 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Here is something else on the asteroid....
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07-07-2003, 01:36 AM | #136 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't mean to be rude, Hobbit, but YOUR statement is one of the most ignorant things said so far on this topic. Samwise is absolutely correct. Evolution is a THEORY, not a science! Sciences are things like biology, physics, chemistry, geology, etc. - and evolutionists try to use scientific info gathered by biologists, physicists, chemists, geologists, etc., to support their THEORY. I think evolutionists often misuse the data (i.e., make invalid "logical assumptions" or extrapolations"), but that's another topic.... But evolution is NOT a science in itself. I think the problem lies with the dual use of the word "science" and "engineer", like "domestic engineer" (what I do now , as opposed to my 10 years in the field of radar, where I was a more traditional engineer). Now evolutionists and creationists USE scientific methods and scientific data, but BOTH of their theories necessarily contain logical inferences, because we're talking about things in the past, that are NOT observable anymore! Would those out there with uni-level studies or degrees in a scientific field agree? (BTW, Cirdan, I've been meaning to ask you - I have it in my head that you have a degree in microbiology. Is that correct?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-07-2003 at 01:43 AM. |
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07-07-2003, 01:39 AM | #137 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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07-07-2003, 01:46 AM | #138 | |||
Elf Lord
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I find the Aztecs an absolutely fascinating example to use, of human ingenuity. Without knowledge of grain (which was developed in the Middle East), they grew corn, avocados, beans, squashes, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, and many other crops. They produced cotton, papayas, rubber, and cacao beans. They dug irrigation systems for their crops. They learned the languages of multiple other tribes around them, the Comanche, Pima, Shoshone, and other tribes of North America. They learned to write and invented weapons and armor. They originally were subjugated by the tribes around them, made slaves, before their civilization. A century after that, they had built their first city, and a century still further, they controlled a huge region and were making alliances with other city-states. After Montezuma 1, his successors expanded the empire until it extended between what are now Guatemala and the Mexican state of San Luis Potosi. People have great creative abilities, despite language barriers and tribal differences, energies that can come together to form incredible things. The Aztec empire is an example of the awesome ability of men to build incredible things within short periods of time, and with small amounts of knowledge to begin with. |
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07-07-2003, 01:49 AM | #139 | |||
Elf Lord
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Agriculture was discovered after 2 million years of man's existence, by current dating methods. There would have been motivation for innovation as well, here. Particularly as they knew that certain wild foods were possible to eat. Berries, fruits, and wild corn. It is possible to imagine people learning how those plants are grown, and reproducing them by planting. Sure, it would have taken study, but man is certainly capable of that. Even if he has to spend huge amounts of his day hunting, or, more recently, working on jobs. He still has time to ponder, as is evidenced by the invention of God, if you call him an invention, and his ponderings can have magnificent results, as is evidenced by the Aztec civilization. True, it might have taken a huge amount of time for planting to be discovered, but man did have time to ponder, to think, and to learn. This is plainly evidenced by the link Jerseydevil gave, about Neanderthal cooking. Quote:
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Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-07-2003 at 01:50 AM. |
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07-07-2003, 01:55 AM | #140 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And for that matter, why did the returning Noldorin elves have to learn Sindarin? Languages change, and often very rapidly!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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