10-17-2004, 02:58 PM | #121 | ||||
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When we die, I believe we will go to heaven. I have to go soon, but I can get into this more later. I'm not very certain what heaven is. I like the romantic ideas around the "typical" Christian interpretation, but I think this is more a way to interpret something that's impossible to understand into something tangible. I can get into this more if someone wishes me too, or we can discuss something else. It's all good. Quote:
The reason I do not feel my beliefs are arbitrary is because I realize that I could be dead wrong. I will live my life according to my beliefs. If it turns out that I'm wrong, when I die and go to heaven (which I believe will happen to everyone, going to heaven I mean) I will apologize to God then. I respect your right to live your life according to your beliefs, and for the rational reason that many people hold these beliefs. It is due to this, and the acknowledgement that I may be wrong, that I do not feel my beliefs are somehow better than yours, or automatically right etc. (I don't think you feel you're automatically right, I say this merely to outline why I'm not being arbitrary As a side note, perhaps all our beliefs are arbitrary to a certain degree, because we have to make assumptions at some point in our reasoning). The reason I even used the word arbitrary in the first place is this: You and I are both rational human beings who read the Bible, a complex and deeply meaningful holy book. I interpret a passage one way, you another. Since both of us have the equal chance of being ultimately right about it, perhaps it is better to choose the path that respects human rights, which sometimes transcend religion. Despite my ultimate belief that I'm right, I believe my previous paragraph still stands. (I'm pretty sure you're Christian so forgive me if I'm wrong in this assumption.) I really have to go, but I realize some of my points and/or intentions may be unclear, so I'll be back later. Also, Lief is completely right about Anglicans. We are a very diverse group of people. Cheerio! And thank you all for your intelligent and thoughtful questions. I'm really enjoying this!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-17-2004, 04:10 PM | #122 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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A lot of conservative Christians, like R*an, would also admit the possibility that they're dead wrong. However, you must admit that some theories seem more plausible then others. For example, you certainly are permitted to believe still in Isostasy, but because of evidence, the Theory of Plate Tectonics seems far more likely to be true. Because of evidence, R*an and myself are Christians. My faith in God would be extremely weak right now (or nonexistent) if God hadn't met me and shown me through my meeting him that he existed. I believe in the God of the burning bush, the pillar of fire and cloud and the Pentecost explosion. I haven't experienced him yet in as much glory as I hope and pray to, but that of him which I have experienced convinces me that those forementioned things happened. You must admit that if one could encounter the God described in the Old Testament and the Book of Acts, evidence would swiftly stack up to cause all contrary beliefs to flounder. I don't believe that religion lies outside of the field of evidence. Evidence can be found to debunk or to support Christianity, and both logical debate and other lines of evidence can be used to approach the controversy between liberals and conservatives. Quote:
What I was doing in my previous post was pointing out a flaw in one of the most common liberal beliefs. That belief is that everyone believes truth. Your truth his as good as my truth, and both are true. Even if things are absolutely contrary to one another, they are both true. I was demonstrating that this belief flounders on itself, because if you believe that, then you believe my beliefs (that you're wrong about this philosophy) are untrue. So you're failing by your own rules. However, I'm glad to find that you aren't a part of this belief system. As to what you said here: "What right have we to say whether someone else's way of life is right or not?" Let's say you have a son, and he grows up to about thirty years old. He plans to climb Mount Everest, without any training whatsoever, simply to show that it can be done. Many people die on Mount Everest, and they are some of the best professional climbers there are. What your boy wants to do looks like suicide, even though he doesn't see it at all as suicide. He's confident he can make it safely. It's "his chosen way of life." Perhaps he's heard reports that this can be done and heard "scientific evidence" that it can be done. He's planning to gamble everything he owns on the fact that he will make it. Now, you don't have the right to lock him in his room and forcibly restrain him. He's a grown man; he can make his own decisions. However, you have every right to do your utmost to convince him he's going to severely hurt himself. That is what Christians do. We have the same right you have to talk to your son and beg him not to go. Perhaps the example would be better if it wasn't a son that was going up, but a friend. But anyway, this is essentially how I see the situation. I would strongly encourage the person not to do this, because the evidence to me seems very great that he shouldn't. I would show what the evidence is, also. In the end it's that person's decision to make, however. Insidious Rex, in case you're reading this, here's where we differ in this example about gay marriage. I believe Gay marriage is like this: That one wayward friend is trying to encourage your children to go up Everest with him. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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10-17-2004, 04:17 PM | #123 |
The Blobbit
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Nurv, get into the everyone going to heaven thing, please. Sounds interesting.
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10-17-2004, 04:22 PM | #124 |
Elf Lord
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Yet pray don't forget to respond to my posts, also. Your comments are in high demand, Nurvingiel .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
10-18-2004, 07:54 AM | #125 | ||||
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Part 1:
Thank you for your thoughtful post Lief, you will not be ignored! I will also get into my thoughts on heaven too. Yay, I'm popular! Quote:
Yes, R*an is quite a liberal conservative in her open-mindedness. However, it's statements like that that make me question the point of labels like “liberal” etc. They help us organize our thoughts, but really tell us nothing about the people we label. Quote:
For example, I have not had the same sort of evidence that you have experienced. Perhaps I was shown this evidence, but I just didn't notice. However, God has shown me other evidence (which you may also have seen) that causes me to believe in God. God in the Old Testament is easier for people to understand. If people actually met him on a mountaintop, I agree, the evidence would mount up very quickly. I believe (from what I have seen and felt) that God is very subtle. In fact, Lizra (and other atheists) might interpret the evidence I've seen differently, and still not believe in God. Largely, God is expressed to me through emotions. The feeling of love and joy I have singing hymns (the good ones, not "Battle Hymn of the Republic") in church, or the incredible kindness or mercy that manifest themselves in our lives at unexpected moments. I still have a very strong faith in God. I also have the feeling that their is more to life than what we see. The Universe is so vast, we have only seen the most minute amount of it. We know just enough about the Universe to realize we actually know diddly squat. (The four stages of intelligence are: 1. You do not know that you do not know 2. You know that you do not know 3. You do not know that you know 4. You know that you know In recent history, humanity has achieved 2 [for the most part]. God is somewhere above a 4.) This is exciting, think of future scientific advancements! Also, this points (IMHO) to the human understanding as being only one of nearly infinite layers to the Universe. I believe that God is the "ultimate" layer, if you will. About creation, I believe in Darwinism and evolution, and that God guided this process and allowed it to happen. Several things occurred that were next to impossible to allow life to form, and then for humans to exist. (There is actually a thread about this, so if we really want to get back into the evolution discussion we should bump that thread up. However, I feel my beliefs on evolution outline how I am spiritual and scientific, and how these two beliefs work well together.) 1. An environment occurred where RNA and nucleotides (the building blocks of all life) were able to form was created. Somehow (God’s influence, I believe) 2. Later, a bolide hit earth, causing a nuclear winter and largely contributed to the extinction of dinosaurs (I believe this theory too). This allowed mammals to emerge as a more dominant life form, giving the chance for humans to evolve. The possibly of both those events occurring was infinitesimally small. I believe God allowed them to happen, thus creating life and human beings too. Adam and Eve, to me, is not meant to be taken literally. It explains other important things about humanity. To be continued… (Unlike irritating television programs, this will happen immediately after.)
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10-18-2004, 08:13 AM | #126 | ||||||||
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Part 2:
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However, maybe this part of the discussion should wander over the the “Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual” thread. It’s part of what I believe, but I don’t want to solely focus on this. On being gay: There is scientific evidence that sexuality is a development in the brain that occurs when the foetus. Left-handedness develops similarly, we know that's not a choice. Incidentally, even until recently people forced left-handed children to write with their right hand in school. Analogous? I think so. You do not choose to be gay, but as I said earlier, what God intends you to do about that is still open for debate. (You all know what I think about that now. I'm very, very pro-gay. ) If you do feel being gay is a choice, sexuality must be a choice, and therefore, you chose to be straight. In other words, if you can choose to be gay, you can also choose to be straight. Imagine that you are choosing to be gay. Can you even conceive this choice? I doubt it. Many gay people throughout history have pretended to be straight, even to the point of marrying people of the opposite sex and having children. But they weren't really straight; it was just that - pretending. It would be the same way if I pretended I was gay. I could have a female partner, about whom I may even care deeply. But I would still be straight, because I was born that way. (I have other thoughts on this but they're more appropriate to the "Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual" thread.) About Heaven: Heaven is a difficult concept for people who understand. As I feel there is much more to Universe than meets the eye, I also feel that there is more to our existence than just living on Earth. But to me, heaven is a place where your soul can be with God. I also believe sinners go to heaven. I don’t believe in the “typical” Christian view of hell and Satan. However, this isn’t a licence to sin. At this point, I have less strength in my beliefs. What happens to souls? Perhaps they spend the rest of eternity with God in heaven, and each human has a unique soul. Or maybe after spending some time in heaven, the soul then returns to earth in another body. I don’t think animals have souls, but I’m not particularly adamant on that point. I certainly think the Buddhist view of reincarnation is possible (from the little I understand of it anyway). Perhaps animals do have souls. Either way, there might be animals in heaven too. Quote:
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Ok, I'm done for now. Post away friends! *Rereads two part post* *sniff* Rian would be proud, I can hear snoring!
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-18-2004, 11:21 AM | #127 |
Elf Lord
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Nurvingiel,
What scientific evidence do you have for your statements about sexual identity being "known"? There is a widely touted speculation that that might be the case, but no evidence - not even so much as for handedness. In fact, nowhere near even that. The assertion of a point of view as deduced from data must have data from which to work. If there is no data, it is a belief remark. The latter is known as scientism and is not scientific.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-18-2004, 11:42 AM | #128 |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Thank you Nurv. I agree with you on most things you said and even the things I don't agree on make alot of sense.
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
10-18-2004, 12:05 PM | #129 | |
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About the evolution thing, what do you believe we evolved from? I know there are several theories, such as the fish and the ape ones. (I myself am a Creationist, so I would like your opinion.)
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But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer |
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10-18-2004, 12:31 PM | #130 | ||
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Inked, your post made me realize that it doesn't matter to me if being gay is a choice or not. My arguments are still the same, but if it was a choice, I'd still be fine with it. Being gay does not seem wrong to me in and of itself. (Did I use "in and of itself" properly? I like scientific grammar phrases such as this one, even though I don't totally understand it. Help me out here Lief. )
I will give several sources of the scientific evidence. (As with any study of the brain, they are theories. Isn't it amazing how little we know about our own brains?) Professor claims scientific evidence of homosexuality For some reason, I couldn't find the study. I could look for it at WebofScience or another such database. Our Perception of Gay Science Alters Political Opinions This article is actually anti-gay, but they make several un-scientific assumptions. This suggests to me that neither side can be scientifically proven. Or that these guys are wrong. And just for fun... Pro gay humour article. Yes, it really is pro-gay. And funny. Does God hate gays? You do the math. I was gonna look for more links, but I've already cross posted with at least two people. So lets see what others have to say...
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-18-2004, 12:41 PM | #131 | |
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10-18-2004, 12:50 PM | #132 | |||||
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My previous post was a cross post with Telcontar and Merry.
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Just a little more on homosexuality before we move over to the "Gays, Lesbians, Bisexuals" thread (I think the discussion would be best continued there for the most part): Quote:
EDIT: This quote mirrors what I stated earlier about trying to imagine you're gay (if you're actually straight). EDIT2: This post crossed with Brownie's one. Wow, activity! Or maybe I just take a long time to post. Final note: (and really final this time) if anyone wants to discuss the articles or really go in-depth on any issue pertaining to being gay, maybe we should hop threads, because being pro-gay isn't the only thing I believe.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-18-2004, 03:31 PM | #133 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-18-2004, 03:43 PM | #134 | ||
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Very interesting Telcontar, thanks for your reply! (Even though I coerced you over MSN. )
I don't think anyone is pure anything - good, evil, or etc. I also think Satan is the embodiement of evil, but the "typical" view was conceived to understand such a difficult concept as evil in the world. Why is there hurt and suffering in a world that God made? Why would God, who is loving and merciful, allow it to occur? The answer for many is that it is Satan's doing. I believe in Satan (as a concept, but not in a "typical" way), but not in Hell as a final destination for sinners. I believe that God gave us free will, and does not feel the need to control or influence all aspects of human existence. That being said, God can be found in many places, both expected and otherwise. This is my own slightly simplistic explanation of why God allows suffering. God is more powerful than Satan, so God does allow it to occur, IMHO. Maybe I'll pause here and give everyone a chance to read the novel I just wrote on this page. Note on the text: When I say typical I don't mean it in a bad way.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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10-18-2004, 03:49 PM | #135 | |
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-18-2004, 03:58 PM | #136 |
Elf Lord
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Nurvingiel,
I don't mind that you have a belief regarding sexual identities or how you believe. What I was pointing out was the lack of data. You note that what data there is conflicts. I admire your honesty in stating that regardless of data you are going to believe x. I just wanted to point out that prefacing something with an invocation to science does not make it scientific. You seem to acknowledge that up front. This is a thread about belief.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-18-2004, 04:21 PM | #137 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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pagan beliefs tended towards the good and evil gods... all very powerful, but not all powerful... and humanity was subject to evil because these powers conflicted with one another... and we were caught in the middle early judaism, which later spawned christianity, came up with the adam and eve story... the idea that god was all-powerful, but he did not want to create a race of perfect beings... instead he wanted to create a race that would have to learn their way to perfection through experience and suffering (i.e. free will)... a reasonable idea on the face of it, and it coveniently allowed both the all-powerfullness of god and the presence of evils in the world my problem with it... and the reason i don't buy it... is that i don't think an all-powerful being would be so extreme about it... tossing adam and eve out into the world as portrayed in genesis to me would be like taking your child and leaving him on some street corner in nyc with a book of moral fables and saying "i'll be back in fifty years to see how you turn out"... i would think that this "good" god could just as easily have gotten all the benefits of his creations learning through experience without being so extreme another possibility is that god is simply beyond good and evil, a kind of grand scientist, and we are all part of some massive experiment... maybe one of many that he has done before and will do again... so what we see as "good" and "evil" is just part of the experiment in god's eye yet another scenario is that god is not all-powerful at all, but very powerful... and he created the best universe he could, warts and all... felt a bit guilty, and has been sending help when and where he can along the way
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10-18-2004, 06:03 PM | #138 | |
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BTW, I made 3 dozen white chocolate chip scones to share for the potluck dinner on Saturday night, and they were gone pretty quick! (there were over 60 people)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-18-2004 at 06:05 PM. |
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10-18-2004, 06:19 PM | #139 | |
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But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer |
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10-18-2004, 06:28 PM | #140 | ||||||
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Ponder Point 1 Would it be better to have suffering and beauty, or plainness and no suffering? I would be quick to say the former, if it were a little more fairly distributed. About what you said later, perhaps Satan is the "equivelant" to an evil pagan God. Ponder Point 2 After all, you can't have good without evil, or can you? Tthere must be some phisolophical analysis behind that). Quote:
I hope you enjoy my super long, 2-part post R*an. Asleep yet? *cough* religion thread *cough* Just kidding buddy, I seriously love your posts.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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