10-28-2004, 12:35 AM | #121 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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It's a very complex subject - nice posts, IRex.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-28-2004, 01:37 AM | #122 | ||
Hobbit
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Reads Rian's siggy and wonders if she has found another Chris Rice fan. . .the chance of it. . .
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However, I don't think it is a fair accusation. Most prolifers do care a lot about children. I would very much like to adopt someday. I plan to have one biological daughter and then wait until she is in highschool to adopt another (I'm only 19 and unmarried at this point, so I have awhile to go). I also care about poor children. I sponsor a child through World Vision and am a major charity sucker. Most of the Christians I know are similarly generous and similarly pro-life. You have also missed another point. The solution to abortion is a lot simpler than the solution to poverty. In America we have been "fighting" poverty for centuries. We invest a great deal of money in it, but it doesn't go away. Sure, I care about those unaborted children. I just don't think the government has any effective way to help them, unlike the pre-borns who a simple law would help immensely. Quote:
I think I can logically prove that free speech, religion, and association are all rights. Give me a little more time and I think I could prove the right to bear arms. I don't think you can logically prove to me that abortion is a right. Meaning an inalienable one, endowed by the creator and what not. |
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10-28-2004, 02:03 AM | #123 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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I don't really see how one can prove any right logically. To me the selection of what is a right and what is isn't is largely based on one's perceptions or that of a society and humanitairian thinking. I don't really see how logic would fit in.
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10-28-2004, 02:10 AM | #124 |
Hobbit
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Which right do you want me to prove?
By your standard, then, there are no "inalienable rights" as they are all arbitrary and granted by society. If so, the right to 'choose" is meaningless and can be revoked by society, so it doesn't really matter if there is a right to choose or not. |
10-28-2004, 02:13 AM | #125 |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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The ones you mentioned are just fine. Thanks. Perhaps better in Private Messages? Since we are moving a bit off topic.
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10-28-2004, 02:20 AM | #126 |
Hobbit
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It is perfectly on topic, but I was hoping you would limit me to one of the above because the proof will take a paragraph or two.
Why it is on topic: I asked for logical proof that there is such a right as abortion. I claim that rights can be logically proven. If rights are, as you suggest, arbitrary, then there is no right to abortion, and therefore the arguement that outlawing abortion limits women's rights is void (as is the right of the baby to life, actually and the right to free speech, etc.). I believe that a right can be logically proven to be a right, and it must fit certain perameters: A right cannot void another person's right. A right cannot be taken away except by force. A right exists previous to government intervention. |
10-28-2004, 04:25 AM | #127 | |||||
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-28-2004, 06:31 AM | #128 | |
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My Fanfic: Letters of Firiel Tales of Nolduryon Visitors Come to Court Ñ á ë ?* ó ú é ä ï ö Ö ñ É Þ ð ß ® ™ [Xurl=Xhttp://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=ABCXYZ#postABCXYZ]text[/Xurl] Splitting Threads is SUCH Hard Work!! |
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10-28-2004, 01:29 PM | #129 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-28-2004, 02:17 PM | #130 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
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So instead of approaching this from the idealistic but impossible end of the stick we should be focusing on the realistic end: HOW can we limit abortions by making it a less likely choice to make? Quote:
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So to answer your question… logically… a woman DOES have the right to perform medical operations on her body. Well you wanted a logical answer. Personally I think this is one issue where its ok to speak to the various emotions that might be swirling around you when you focus on it. Its totally legitimate to be appalled by abortion. Its perfectly OK.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-28-2004, 04:51 PM | #131 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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"Deep Enough to Dream", "Past the Edges", "Run the Earth and Watch the Sky", "Smell the Color Nine" - can't live without 'em! Which are your favorites? (I'm sure the mods will allow us one teensy little digression here ...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-28-2004 at 04:52 PM. |
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10-28-2004, 04:58 PM | #132 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-28-2004, 09:27 PM | #133 |
Quasi Evil
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well i would have quoted you if it had been an insult.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
10-28-2004, 10:34 PM | #134 |
Elf Lord
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IR,
"I see a perfect parallel there. If you are saying we should be better then that then don’t count on it. Because, in the end, on a global scale, we WILL act like animals. Period." We are RATIONAL animals. The very separation of man from beast is that he has specifically human qualities and the ability to think and judge among actions. Why plead animality when you must use reason to justify the behaviour? Shall we eat our young next? (Not a new idea, and it would help with both overpopulation and dwindling food resources! cf. A Modest Proposal by J. Swift).
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-29-2004, 01:06 AM | #135 | |||||||||||
Hobbit
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IRex, have you ever heard of the logical falacy known as the red herring? It is bringing up another subject, a possibly related but still another subject, into a discussion. The poverty issue is another subject, possibly related, but another subject, and bringing it up is a red herring. It doesn't help your debate at all and seems purely aimed at proving the opposite side to be hypocritical in an emotional appeal which doesn't really help a debate at all. It may be a good way to argue if you are simply interested in 'winning votes' but in a logical discourse it does no good.
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If a man is drowning but also has a broken leg, you rescue him first, then you worry about the broken leg. Drowning kills. Broken leg doesn't. Drowning kills now. Broken leg may eventually kill over time. Abortion is killing now. Poverty kills slowly, but over a huge time period. I say save the baby and THEN worry about its life. If you let the baby be killed there is no life to worry about, and your excuse really is just an easy way out of a problem. Go ahead and kill them because I'm not willing to deal with their situation when they are impoverished. Quote:
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I have never clocked my protestation time. I know that I give more money to help the maltreatment of children than to stop abortion. I don't generally do any protestion at all in real life. I am one of those people who believes picket people are wasting their time. I have only written a letter to the editor once and it was on neither the subject of abortion or poverty. Quote:
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And the baby is not part of the mother. It has an entirely distinct genetic code right from conception. The follicle will have mine. Quote:
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Anyway, back to the inalienables. If there are no inalienable rights, we are left with Maybury facism (as opposed to the idea of facism we have, Maybury defines facisms as "Whatever has the most force behind it is right because there is no right or wrong."). Under Facism (by this definiton, I have heard others) there is no need for justification of any law or political action. The only thing necessary is fear of repurcusion. It is all right for me to kill a man, but I have to watch out because his brother might return the action by killing me. It may be all right for me to oppress a political minority, but if they gain majority status somehow they may in turn oppress me. By this philosophy, Hitler was in the right simply because he was able to maintain absolute power for a long while. . .until he was whooped and then he was in the wrong. In the case of this philosophy being true, this entire arguement is void and therefore whoever wins political is in the right. There are prolife facists. They generally don't see themselves as such, but in facism as there is no wrong it is all right to bomb those who disagree with you in order to get back in power. I disagree with them, obviously. I disagree with all facism. Right is right, despite force. RightS are RightS despite force. I believe I have the right to live even if you kill me. I believe I have a right to speek even if I get imprisoned for it. People in China have the right to everything people in America have. It is simply that in China the government steps on a lot of those rights. If there are no rights, it is simply the matter of who can get political power faster. |
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10-29-2004, 10:45 AM | #136 | |
Warrior of the House of Hador
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Then Huor spoke and said: "Yet if it stands but a little while, then out of your house shall come the hope of Elves and Men. This I say to you, lord, with the eyes of death: though we part here for ever, and I shall not look on your white walls again, from you and me a new star shall arise. Farewell!" The Silmarillion, Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Page 230 |
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10-29-2004, 11:12 AM | #137 | |
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from your earlier statements i assume you are saying wartime innocent deaths are not the same because eventhough the innocent person killed did absolutely nothing wrong (and had no "intent") they just happened to be in the "wrong place, wrong time" with someone who did do something wrong??? i don't see the difference myself
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10-29-2004, 12:44 PM | #138 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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It's hard to explain, but to me there's quite a big difference - let me try again (and thanks for sticking with me! Sorry I can't explain better)
Capital punishment death - there was intent for harm on the part of the criminal, so society responds with the consequence that it has pre-approved for this type of action (and I think the death penalty is ONLY if there is intent/premeditation - i.e., not for accidental deaths, or even "in the passion of the moment" deaths). Wartime death of innocents - there was intent for harm on the part of some leaders of a country/group, so the harmed group responds with a consequence approved by its group. Some innocents will be unintentionally killed because of this consequence, but THEY WOULD NOT have been killed if there had NOT been intent for harm on the part of those leaders. With abortion, there's no wrong-doing on the part of the baby, nor is the baby's death accidental in the same sense as a wartime accidental death, because the abortion is NOT in reaction to someone's chosen harmful action, like a war is. (and I'm talking about the vast majority of abortions, which are NOT due to rape.) Abortion - The baby that is killed has done nothing wrong. There is no pre-set penalty judged by society to be the fit consequence of CHOOSING to be conceived, because one does not choose to be conceived. There IS a pre-set penalty judged by society to be the fit consequence of CHOOSING to commit a terrible, pre-meditated crime. Therefore I don't see why abortion can be considered comparable to capital punishment, or why some people think it's hypocritical to be for capital punishment and against abortion. Anyway, if this doesn't clear it up, never mind
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-29-2004 at 12:46 PM. |
10-29-2004, 03:00 PM | #139 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-30-2004, 10:01 AM | #140 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
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Let me ask you this. Do you think the best thing we could have done in Iraq (oh dear hes bringing up Iraq in an abortion thread… the message board is going to implode now!) is gone in and taken out sadam and smashed things up then just left? Or would that have been the absolute worst thing we could have done because then Iraq would become a terrorist state and the people of iraq would have been left with no infrastructure and no education or health care systems and there would be a horrible unbalancing of power in the middle east that would certainly go against us in the long run. And desperation and poverty and despair would breed fundamentalism which would then be free to grow unfettered fueled by this despair and by resentment and ignorance. And you would end up with another Taliban state or worse yet simply a big chaotic black hole in the middle of the middle east that would be a plague on the world for generations. So then… is it your position that I shouldn’t bring up what happens AFTER the invasion when talking ABOUT the invasion? Massively short sighted if you ask me. Quote:
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But anyway this analogy is a bit flawed because who seeks to drown? But people DO seek abortions. So in order for the analogy to work it would have to be men with broken legs attempting to kill themselves by drowning and prolifers rushing out to drag them and their broken leg back to shore to keep them alive. And then leave them laying there with their leg still broken as they rush off to save the next suicider. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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