04-19-2006, 02:15 PM | #121 | ||
Elf Lord
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Why would you think that it was a person's duty to promote human welfare?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-19-2006, 02:23 PM | #122 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-19-2006, 02:25 PM | #123 | |
Spaceman Spiff
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'The problem with people is they're too human.'-Hobbes Yes, it came from a comic strip, but I think it's true.
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04-19-2006, 02:29 PM | #124 | |
Elf Lord
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If it hasn't happened YET (which is debatable, you should go back and look more closely at some of the greek city states, and the french revolution) it's just a matter of time before some promising young athiest gets on the soap box and says: "There is no god! Religion is evil, a system perpetrated by clever hucksters and con men to benefit themselves. The followers of those outmoded, ridiculous doctrines are the bane of mankind's existence. Since they will never willingly give up their optiate, they must be destroyed, before they doom the rest of us... Let the UN-holy war commence." If you think this will never happen, you don't understand human politics.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-19-2006, 02:33 PM | #125 | ||
Friendly Neigborhood Sith Lord
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wow what an amazing thread where was i when it started *ponders* oh well I got to remember this one and try to read it in its entirety some time.
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04-19-2006, 02:54 PM | #126 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-19-2006, 02:56 PM | #127 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-19-2006, 03:00 PM | #128 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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By the way, Stalin used atheism and nationalism much like the church uses scripture. To control people. The writings themselves were irrelavant.
The point is to inspire with a belief system and make the populace do what you wish of them. This is why absolute belief systems should be avoided and people should be encouraged to think more about the real world and what is good for society.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-19-2006, 03:15 PM | #129 | |
Elf Lord
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Or euthanize and sterilize a portion of the population. You'll have to do better than that if you want to populariaze enlightned self interest as a basis for an ethical system. There are no free lunches. Every change demands sacrifice, and has unintented consequences. In other words, because of the conflict between the human survival instincts of altruism and competition, there will always be those who choose short term benefits, because short term benefits translate into LONG term benefits when you look at genetic selection. If you're talking about personal benefits as the basis for ethics, you lost an awful lot of people right there, because They'll have more children than you because they invented a way to turn senior citizens into diesel fuel... and it's all about personal benefits right?
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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04-19-2006, 04:19 PM | #130 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Christians, OTOH (to take my own case because I'm most familiar with it) have a LOT to work with and discuss. They can start with analysis of ancient literature and compare the NT to other ancient manuscripts (Some sample questions - 1. What is the earliest copy in existence? (how much time between when it was originally written and the earliest copy?) 2. How many manuscripts do you have? 3. How do they vary among each other? ) and then compare the results with other religions' manuscripts. They can move on to historical accuracy (The gospel of Luke, for example, names 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands with complete accuracy) and compare it to other religions (no historical evidence for any of Mormonism's geographical names). It can be logically analyzed for internal consistency, and in terms of "what conclusions can be logically drawn from these statements" and then compared to observeable reality. There's just a lot to work with! Now none of this is "proof" - but there's certainly a lot to talk about and analyze. Atheists can basically say, "I don't think there's a god. I really don't think there's a god." Or they can add further statements about their opinions, like, "If there was a god, then such-and-such wouldn't happen". Of course that's an opinion; it's not proof. No wonder they're not into proof! Seriously, think about it! They can be into negative proof against other religions, but there's really no positive proof for their own beliefs. Also, good, sincere Christians are "into proof" because they, personally, have seen huge benefits in their life and want to share with others in hopes they'll see the reasonableness of the faith and choose to become a Christian, because they care about others and want them to experience the good things that they have experienced. Sure, some people are into power, but I think the majority of true Christians are not. I think the only motive that an atheist would have to try to convert someone to atheism is the belief that it's good to not be deluded (which atheists think religious people are). As far as the fluid nature of reality - sure, customs and opinions change, but reality is what is really true (whether we perceive it or not), and two conflicting statements cannot both be true.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-19-2006, 04:21 PM | #131 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-19-2006, 04:23 PM | #132 | |
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This is different then saying an atheist can do cruel and evil things. Many christians have convinced themselves that god wants us to destroy all Heathens/Pagans/Jews/Homosexuals/Blacks/Dodo Birds/French Canadians etc. etc. because of how they interpreted their own scripture or because of what they have heard preached. An atheist (which by the way is simply another form of religion as far as Im concerned) as far as I know has no such equivalent rigid inspiration. And the concept of "agnostic influenced atrocities" is too paradoxical to comprehend really.
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04-19-2006, 04:29 PM | #133 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-19-2006 at 04:40 PM. |
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04-19-2006, 04:32 PM | #134 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-19-2006, 04:55 PM | #135 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-19-2006, 04:58 PM | #136 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-19-2006, 05:11 PM | #137 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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There are plenty of good reasons to help the poor achieve a better existance, for example, without bringing religion into the picture. And, if you do bring religion into the picture, you get stupid debates about things like whether or not contraception should be given as a method of controlling the spread of AIDs in Africa because some religions believe it is "against god's will". Sorry. We just don't need that kind of thinking anymore.
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-19-2006, 05:15 PM | #138 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Then don't object if someone prefers "eat your neighbor" to "love your neighbor"!
And the existence of god is VERY relevant if that god knows information about reality that we don't, wouldn't you say?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-19-2006, 06:33 PM | #139 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Why does this thread appear as just "..." on the main page?
By the way, I'm sorry about the total Godwin's law violation that occurred in the other thread. That was largely my fault.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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04-19-2006, 06:58 PM | #140 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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