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01-14-2005, 12:06 AM | #121 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
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IR, that last was statement to expose relativism for its true nature! "What capital can I make out of this?" Gotta luv the narcissism!
JD, I must admit your report on the French incapacity for response was mind-boggling. But as the eloquent Tom Lehrer noted (sing along now), in regard to the Germans - "We taught them a lesson in 1918...and they've hardly bothered us since then!" Remember my note earlier about the asymptotic learning curve? I rest my case.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-14-2005, 05:27 AM | #122 | |||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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But really it's about social and historical context. Quote:
BTW, I hope you didn't think I was devaluing the work you described, and I totally agree that, in times when our leaders show less compassion than we do, that we still do what we can as individuals and groups. There are lots of good points in your post and I will think about them. Thanks. Quote:
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Taking that a bit further, we can see how these figures have mobilised their religion in a political context, thus transposing their religious authority into a political one. While I thoroughly disapprove of this, I can see how such things act as an antidote to political apathy: because politics incorporates religion, it's more understandable and accessible to the general populace. That's something that is pretty rare in Christendom, and is particularly alien here in the UK, though it seems to be gaining ground in the US. To get back to the comparative morality question, the concept of freedom that inked refers to is, IMO, largely a result of the Reformation and Enlightenment, which were mostly Western movements. "Freedom of expression" is a value which does have the same value and meaning in other cultures as it does in our own. So, again, we have to be careful when we transpose our values in judgment upon other value systems. Taking such care is not the same as saying that "all religions are the same" nor does it mean that we have to voice approval of any acts or beliefs those other cultures engage in. To argue that it does is, IMO, either infantile or shows a reluctance to engage seriously with the issue. Last edited by Sister Golden Hair Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-14-2005 at 05:30 AM. |
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01-14-2005, 06:34 AM | #123 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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[Response to flamebait deleted]
And to respond to this question - "So that justifies our killing 100,000+ Iraqis?" We aren't responsible for all those 100,000 deaths. Those are the total Iraqi civilians killed. But hey - I know it servers your purpose to make it seem like those were all caused by Americans - instead of the insurgents and caused by Saddam Hussein during the war. Was it justifiably to kill millions of Frencman and Germans in the liberation of France and the overthrow of Germany? You seem to pick and choose your history, as well as erroneously use statistics to back up your points. It's what people do all the time with Hirosama and Nagosaki - ignoring the fact that there were many cities in Europe and Japan that suffered far more civilian casualties during air raids - then those two citiess suffered becasue of the atomic bomb. But if you have to twist numbers to make your point - you don't have much to stand on. Last edited by Sister Golden Hair
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-14-2005 at 06:53 AM. |
01-15-2005, 03:20 AM | #124 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Except I think that each suicide bomber is supposed to have EXCLUSIVE rights to each of his eternal virgins. It's not as much fun to share the goods, right? (perhaps I shouldn't start you guys thinking about this topic ... ) (but as a rabbit trail, I wonder if the women are supposed to think it's an honor to be one of those virgins, and/or if any do think it's an honor? I know that I would not like sharing my husband with 71 other women! I like my exclusive rights )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-15-2005, 03:31 AM | #125 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Interesting. Quote:
See, that's why I think it's good to study the doctrine of various beliefs. You can now challenge someone that calls themselves a Christian, and has that terrible attitude you've observed, with the Bible verses I gave you, and say, "Are you justified in calling yourself a Christian, when your own doctrine says the following things about helping the poor?" and then show the verses I mentioned. (and if you do this, please do it in love, not defiance.) And let me inform you that at least here in the US, I know of many Christians that do NOT have that horrible attitude. Quote:
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PS - how's the little ankle-biter?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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01-15-2005, 07:14 AM | #126 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Heh. He's sitting on my lap right now, fascinated by my one-handed typing.
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01-17-2005, 05:31 AM | #127 | |||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
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However, I'll take that as an invitation to comment in general terms about the "Christian" societies most of us live in. Just so folks know that I'm not directing this tirade against anyone here. The "bottom line" message that I got from being brought up as a Christian was "love thy neighbour". There also seems to be rather a lot in the Bible about modesty and meekness as well as a strong anti-materialist message. The "bottom line" message that I get from observing our societies is that the meek get shat on, modesty is for the birds and let's all amass as large a personal fortune as possible, "de'il tak the hindmost". When you look further into how we organise and govern ourselves, we see that "Christian" principles are largely absent from politics. How could we tolerate starvation, poverty, injustice, preventable disease and the degradation of the environment, yet still proclaim Christian values? The answer is simple: be selective. If those more vocal Christian groups spent half as much energy pushing for decent conditions, justice and opportunity for all as they currently do campaigning against gays, then the world might well be a different place. However, they don't. They mostly seem to sell the Biblical ideas that people are willing to buy into, which includes the denigration of certain minorities, but doesn't include the "camel and the eye of the needle". I find that both depressing and undignified. It's true that certain Christians, and Christian groups, have achieved many good things over the years, and there's no reason why they should not continue to do so. My own feeling is that more can be and has been achieved by secular groups. Quote:
He's a cutie; will PM you an update so as to spare others the appalling sentimentality. Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-17-2005 at 05:35 AM. |
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01-17-2005, 04:45 PM | #128 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
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I was hinting there, (or trying to), was that we often rationalize our behaviour. We do sometimes have reasons we don’t acknowledge ourselves for our actions, and we rationalize some of our behaviour with different, more comfortable to us, or more socially acceptable reasons that the ones that truly lead to a particular behaviour. Quote:
Now, I obviously believe she may very well be repressed, and you know it, but, and it is a big but, that is my opinion, based on the facts and my interpretation of the facts, (as given earlier, and later), to that particular part of the post. I do not believe we should deny our own values and perceptions, nor do I believe we need to. What we must remember is that we, not being omniscient, are not necessarily right, and be able to explain our perceptions and positions based in facts and in the interpretation of these facts, and not being clode to the position of others. This I attempt to do. Quote:
We certainly cannot make a decision that is 100% free of our cultural and social conditioning, but that is not the problem. Some cultures are obvious more limiting than others in what is acceptable individual conduct. Certainly, our Western Culture, highly individualist as it is, (some would say far too individualistic) allows a much greater degree of freedom of choice that that of the Near East countries. Now, not all individuals deal well with this freedom existing in our society, (specially if raised in a different culture, or if belonging to a semi-integrated culture with conflicting values with the dominant culture). Quote:
Yet, I deliberately choose extreme cases to make a point; that Culture can be a very powerful factor limiting freedom. Just think, if Culture is a strong enough force to drive a mother to mutilate her child, or a wife to choose to immolate herself by fire, then much more easily can lead others to much more innocuous behaviours, even in our own free society. By the way; as a note, the burning of widows is not supported by Law, rather the opposite, and despite this, it still occasionally happens; such is the (negative in this case) power of Culture.
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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01-17-2005, 05:21 PM | #129 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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01-17-2005, 05:43 PM | #130 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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The current voluntary formation of the EU would have had its involuntary and violent formation in the Third Reich if GB, the USA, and USSR had not stopped him. I think they were going to refer to it as greater Germany or maybe just lebensraum?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-17-2005, 05:46 PM | #131 | ||
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I don't think that's what the EU really had in mind...
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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01-17-2005, 07:32 PM | #132 |
Elf Lord
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Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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You are correct, Nurv. I merely point out that the entity is political and could have been established politically in another mode - doubtless with different goals!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-18-2005, 05:28 AM | #133 |
Lady of Letters
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Either Oxford or Kent, England
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inked is right. Hitler wanted to control continental Europe, which would have involved uniting it, but obviously without the democracy and shared decision-making we have today. It doesn't mean there any similarities between the EU and the Third Reich; in fact it's a nice historical irony that what Hitler failed to do with bad intentions began to be done with good intentions less than ten years later.
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01-18-2005, 09:35 AM | #134 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Lindon
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Quote:
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**************************************** "None are more hoplessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Reality is just an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein The Caffeine Mantra It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of Brazil that the thoughts aquire speed, The hands aquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion... Elvellon Erelion |
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01-18-2005, 10:33 AM | #135 |
Elf Lord
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Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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Thank you, Sun-star!
Evellon, politics make strange bedfellows. That Hitler and Stalin had a pact to divide Europe between them did not dissaude the Third Reich from making the attempt. That the USSR and GB and the USA prevented that establishment by force of arms is an historical fact, as is the goal of Hitler. And his plans did not end at the seashores he thus planned to encounter. And yet Stalin would have done the same and did attempt it. The consequence was NATO. And it accomplished the same goal of prevention by threat of arms. That the peaceful accomplishment of these goals was made 6 decades later a reality of co-operation is a fitting accolade to the sacrifices of those who fought to free Europe in WWII and the Cold War which followed. The comparison is apt, in excellent taste, and accurate.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
01-18-2005, 10:51 AM | #136 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i guess you can compare anything... say, a raven to a writing desk but that one is of somewhat dubious quality
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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01-18-2005, 12:19 PM | #137 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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01-18-2005, 12:29 PM | #138 |
Elven Warrior
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[edited by moderator - content of post did not contribute to discussion but was merely inflamatory] - Fenir - take that as a warning
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Audaces fortuna juvat Last edited by Valandil : 01-18-2005 at 12:32 PM. |
01-18-2005, 12:32 PM | #139 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Edited because Fenirs flame was edited out by moderator.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 01-18-2005 at 12:36 PM. |
01-18-2005, 12:46 PM | #140 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Free, happy, drunk and sincere
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[Post deleted as defying moderator decision]
Last edited by Sister Golden Hair
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Audaces fortuna juvat |
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