02-24-2006, 08:05 PM | #121 | |
Elf Lord
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You've picked out one study that supports your position. I know there are more. Exodus International has said that most studies indicate a high degree of change through sexual orientation changing programs. While I don't know whether that's true, there are clearly a significant number of studies that claim differently, and making generalizations that they're all flawed is a little presumptuous.
It would take me a large amount of research to be able to form a truly educated opinion in the issue . I have my biases, and you yours, and we both have our personal experiences and statistics and data from different sources. Perhaps you're right that insufficient studies have been done on the issue; I don't know whether that's true or not. Bumping against the boundaries of one's own knowledge is a very, very irritating experience. One is forced to do a great deal of research, but being naturally lazy, is often disinclined to put forth all the effort. About what you said regarding bisexuality, I agree that it should be taken into account in surveys. I don't know whether or not it is. But as the percentage of the population that is bisexual is even smaller than the percentage that is homosexual (according to the Gay & Lesbian Task Force), which is itself small, it seems unlikely that a significant proportion of the people entering a sexual orientation changing program are actually confused bisexuals. Quote:
I think that there is a lot of prejudice from liberals against groups that attempt to help people change their sexual inclination, though I expect there also is bias in favor of those groups from many fundamentalists.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-24-2006, 09:48 PM | #122 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Multiple problems with that article, here's a few:
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I'll try to hit some more points from the article later - my daughter wants the computer now! I'll just hit one more, that I think is THE critical one, from my POV and IMO from the POV of people in Exodus - SO WHAT if it's hard, and the success rate isn't very high? SO WHAT? (and remember, the primary measurement of success, for THEM, is stopping the BEHAVIOR). Since when do you decline to do something that you think is right because there isn't a high prob. of success? What if Frodo, after he said he'd take the ring, was told, "There's an extremely low prob. of success - you'd better not try it. And BTW, you other 8 guys that said you'd help him - you'd better drop it, too!" Oh, you people of small heart ... There's thousands of people who are tremendously grateful to how Exodus and organizations like them helped them - THOUSANDS! I say good for Exodus.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 10:17 PM | #123 | |
Elf Lord
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I will just point out that they say the success rate is far higher than 3%.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-24-2006, 11:02 PM | #124 | |
Elf Lord
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Here is a link from Exodus International to 31 studies that have been conducted, testing whether people's desires can be changed from homosexual to heterosexual orientation.
http://www.newdirection.ca/a_change.htm They took bisexuality into account. They listened to results from the subjects of the test. Here is the conclusion of the research of these studies: Quote:
The research project was not focused on changing behaviors but attractions.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-24-2006, 11:18 PM | #125 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I disagree about the primary focus, but will have to get back to you ... I"m heading out for dinner with hubby in a few minutes ... pizza on the way for the kids ... geez, it's so wonderful to have a babysitting-age kid now!!!!!!!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-24-2006, 11:28 PM | #126 | |
Elf Lord
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As to brainwashing... well, yeah, to an extent I probably am. Most of my experience with religion took place in elementary school, K-5 specifically. We were taught to think in a way appropriate to the catholic religion before we were really old enough to comphrehend just what it was we were being taught. There's a degree of trust there that was being taken advantage of. I'll admit to being biased in that respect though. I was extremely unhappy in that environment, and I recently found out that the primary priest of the church affiliated with the school was one of the priests charged with molestation. I try not to dimiss people based on whether they're religious or not, but I am distrustful of their intentions. Especially concerning sexuality, because the idea that all sexual desire is sinful and non-hetero/marital relations doubly so is so ingrained in just about every major religion. I think you do have a good point though, about there being more or at least equal numbers of non-religious people who are conditioned to be so, and in their cases it's very likely that the thing that conditioned them to be non-religious was the behavior of those who were religious towards them. And while thinking rationally and analyzing one's thought's and beliefs can help a great deal when coming to terms with conflicting background and sexuality... conditioning is the most basic form of learning, we're all conditioned in some way long before we learn to analyze and think critically. Many people don't really have a chance to learn except through conditioning. So when considering things like sexuality, which are we most likely to take into account? Beliefs that we've been conditioned to accept or newer thoughts that we have to actively analyze? I hope some of that made sense. I tried to keep it as a response to your response but I think I started wandering onto a new question near the end there...
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02-24-2006, 11:36 PM | #127 | |
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They seem to be implying that homosexuality could be a result of dysfunctional family relationships rather than being genetic. But the same correlation could also mean that homes with homosexual children who aren't accepted by their parents/siblings/guardians have dysfunctional relationships.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
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02-25-2006, 02:15 AM | #128 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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WHAT?!?! WHAT in the WORLD are you talking about? Where did you get that idea? Please give references! because that is NOT in any Bible that I know about!! Here's one for you, just off the top of my head from Proverbs: "Rejoice in the wife of your youth ... let her breasts satisfy you at all times." Pretty explicit command! I'm very sorry to hear about your bad experience.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-25-2006, 03:49 AM | #129 |
Elf Lord
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I don't think that Islam calls sexual pleasure sinful either. The covering of the women is meant to keep the men from lusting. That wouldn't mean that enjoying sex is bad, but it would in theory lessen the cases of sex outside of wedlock.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
02-25-2006, 05:18 AM | #130 | ||
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Actually, Islam only stipulates that men and women dress modestly. It doesn't have to be a specific type of modest clothing.
Burkas and such were a cultural addition after the creation of Islam (by the Persians, I think). I wonder if there's any mention of homosexuality in the Qu'ran? (<- so as to attempt to be on topic. )
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02-25-2006, 05:55 AM | #131 | ||||
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I see where you're going. I think it's sad some people feel they have to express they're sexuality different than what it actually is, because I'm a strong believer in being true to yourself, as long as this doesn't hurt anyone. But if someone wants to have a different sexuality, then that's how they feel I guess. I could decide to express my sexuality by dating women, but... why? I would be pretending to be something I'm not, and that's not fair to the women I would date, or to myself. (I make a great hypothetical gay person though. ) Of course, I know some people say that homosexuality does hurt you, but I still think that's dumb, I know we've gone down that road a few times before. We know where it leads. I don't think our opinions will reconcile on that one. Quote:
People who are for gay rights don't agree necessarily on how this should be done. There isn't a gay ally hive mind, just as there is not a gay hive mind. We are the homosexuals! You will be assimilated! I know you don't think that, I'm just saying.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 02-25-2006 at 05:57 AM. |
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02-25-2006, 12:22 PM | #132 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Being bisexual doubles your chance of a date on Saturday night.
--Woody Allen
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02-25-2006, 12:24 PM | #133 |
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d'you know the worst thing i hear fom both straights and gays? bisexuals are either ettention seeking or are just plain greedy
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02-25-2006, 12:33 PM | #134 | |
Elf Lord
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I should have said 'all deviations from what are considered 'normal' sexual desires' there. Not sure what I was thinking of before... There is a logical connection in there someplace, but it's hiding. I'll attempt to dig it out.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
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02-25-2006, 12:34 PM | #135 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Some would say "confused". IMO they just enjoy the best of both worlds.
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." |
02-25-2006, 12:35 PM | #136 |
The Intermittent One
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even my current, soon to be ex, partner does it, no matter how many times i tell him off for it - IMHO i believe that everyone is bisexual to a certain extent anyway, it is just that the majority of people gravitate towards one sex or the other
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02-25-2006, 01:34 PM | #137 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
I don't know whether I believe the study or not. It might be true. I'm just bringing up the evidence for the opposite view to the one you just presented.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-25-2006, 05:15 PM | #138 | |
Elven Warrior
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02-25-2006, 05:40 PM | #139 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't think our genitals and what we desire to do with them (and with who) define us, to put it crudely. I think our sexuality is only one part of what makes a person, and we are NOT slaves to the desires it sends up in that area, or any other. I think there is something in every person that is ABOVE our urges in ANY area, and can decide what to do with the urges, and THAT part is the important part in us.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-25-2006, 06:53 PM | #140 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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