01-17-2007, 01:05 PM | #121 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
I speak from a place of honesty in my heart, as do you, both of us saying what we believe is true. Yet we come to many opposite conclusions. So that a person says what he or she believes is true is not a good enough reason to believe that person. We have to know what the evidence is. In the case of God, there is no evidence against him existing. In the case of sexuality, the person knows for a fact whether or not he's telling the truth, so his word is very valuable evidence as to what he feels.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-17-2007 at 04:22 PM. |
|
01-17-2007, 02:44 PM | #122 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
2. show why it matters even if true. 3. explain why the LAW ignores general biological (and social) differences when addressing race, culture, or sex and why this double standard is ok.
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
||||||
01-17-2007, 04:20 PM | #123 | ||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
We have laws that treat adult-child relations differently than adult-adult relations, because of biological differences between the adult and the child. We should find out whether these biologically different kinds of relationships between adults are similar or different also, before we stamp them all with the same laws. Quote:
Quote:
I have spelled out in previous posts some of the ways in which I think homosexuality is harmful. But my argument concerning genetic difference is not based upon homosexuality being harmful or fine. It is based, instead, upon the simple logic that there will by necessity be differences between different kinds of relationships, and throwing equal laws onto them all without conducting studies and extensive research on homosexual relationships is irresponsible, because the laws we give them might not be suited to their kind of relationships. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.helpself.com/brain.htm The question is how different the relationships will be, in what ways, and what laws should therefore apply to them. That's what we need reliable studies to determine. Quote:
Socialization is going to be a factor, especially now with this feminist wart growing in our culture, trying to take over masculinity. But biology should clearly be the primary reason. Here's a personal example: I have four siblings, two sisters and two brothers, and all of us have grown up roughly according to the gender stereotypes. My parents would have had no problem with any of us acting in other ways. My sister could have joined our violent games, and we could have done more with barbies. In fact, one of my brothers did for a couple years, though those games were not "girly" games, but rather were comedy focused. My sisters are more social, my brothers and I are not. My siblings and I have always played with one of my sisters, but she just of her own choice doesn't play the fight sequences in our games that much, because she doesn't feel good at it or particularly interested in it. Romance films are designed for women. Fighting films are often designed for men. Men tend to be more physical and women more social, innately rather than because they're pressured to be that way. In my view, this all goes back to the hunter-gatherer situation people had at the beginning of our existence as a species. Men are more aggressive than women- this is an established fact in Political Science. It's acknowledged throughout the profession. They know the statistics and have taught this established fact to us in class. This only makes sense- it is tied, biologically, to our history. We were genetically designed to be physicially stronger and bigger than women, and to be more aggressive, because our species needed one member with those characteristics if we were to survive. We also needed someone more designed for nurturing though. That was also necessary for the survival of our race. So men and women are different automatically, and were designed that way from the beginning. You can see major physical differences between men and women whenever you look at a man or a woman. Otherwise, you couldn't tell which was which. Why is it so hard for you to accept that biological differences logically would be encoded in the genetic make-up of their brains as well? Stereotypes cross society in this matter for a reason. That reason is not just because everyone has always been brought up that way, for otherwise you would see more difference between cultures. You would see some Amazons somewhere! Yet I admit also that society also impacts the way people will behave in a significant way, and everyone is different. Learning impacts thinking to a large extent as well as genetics. Quote:
Race is a minimal genetic difference- there is no big difference between a Negro and a Caucasian. It's mainly just skin color. That's tiny. Who cares? The physical differences between a man and a woman are huge though, both in terms of the structure and design of their bodies and also the way they think. There's no process by which they'll alter their genetic make-up.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||||||||
01-17-2007, 04:44 PM | #124 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
A male of any race will not ask for directions when lost. Male-ness is a stronger trait than race-ness.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
01-17-2007, 05:02 PM | #125 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Yep, and that's because we're far more achievement oriented than women are. I certainly am. My biggest fear is failure.
I think that that kind of instinct also can be traced back to our original condition when we came out on the Earth. We had to have one of the two parts of our species aggressive and achievement oriented in order to survive. We needed the skills, aggression and physical prowess orientation as a species, in the earlier times of humanity's existence. We also needed, and still badly need, the nurturing angle women possess. Her characteristics and abilities and those of men work together beautifully, and are both essential for our species.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
01-17-2007, 05:41 PM | #126 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Why aren't christians clamouring for laws that would make it illegal for a heterosexual pedofile to marry and have children?
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
01-17-2007, 05:59 PM | #127 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Like homosexuality and bisexuality, my personal view is that pedophelia comes from environment rather than genetics, and I think that available evidence supports that belief.
I'm not favoring discrimination between couples based upon cultural differences or environmental influence. But if there is a major genetic difference, responding to it in our laws makes perfect sense. Environment can change or be overcome. Genes can't. Someone brought up in one culture may feel little attachment to it. He may not care for it at all. Then he may immerse himself in someone else's culture, fall in love with someone in it and get married. He's crossed a cultural divide. Or people may keep their different cultures and respect one another's different behaviors, and still remain happily married couples. A pedophile may keep those sexual interests to himself or even overcome them and change completely so that he no longer has them. I bet that that's possible. He can also live a happily married life. A relationship between the pedophile and a child will very likely have a lot of big differences to that between two adults though, because of the different stages of development between the two. The differences of biology. So that kind of relationship, if it was legalized, would also have to have different laws made up concerning it that are most suited to its specifics. The same goes for homosexual relationships. You see what I'm saying? Genetics and biology are insurmountable. One can't change their genes, and gender makes a big difference as to what your behavior is like. So culture and environment are one thing, but genetics is in a wholly different department, and studies should be made to find out what homosexual relationships are like before marriage laws or civil union laws are extended to cover them.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-17-2007 at 06:07 PM. |
01-17-2007, 06:29 PM | #128 | |||||||||||||||||
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
Posts: 4,634
|
Quote:
Quote:
And by the way where does this kind of silly blind genetic test leave you in regard to transgender and sex change cases? They would be taken down by this distinction as well even though they look and act the part. Quote:
An adult is an adult no matter what their sexual persuasion… Being gay doesn’t mean they have the maturity level of a seven year old nor does it mean they are incapable of making normal adult choices for themselves as well as any heterosexual adult. So your argument that we have laws about children therefore we should have laws about gays is horribly misconceived logic. Quote:
This whole idea that we must have tests and studies before we allow certain people to marry smacks of poll taxes and jim crow laws if you ask me. Theres no real precedent for it at all. So why the heck use this as your key argument against gay marriages only? Why not apply it to everything else in life that might hurt us… Cause a lot of things do. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
|||||||||||||||||
01-17-2007, 08:23 PM | #129 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
|
Quote:
Upbringing is also a very strong force when it comes to behavior, and can be completely insurmountable in some cases. Something is not a "choice" if you can never actually make that choice. How do you feel about openly gay men being able to legally marry a woman if they so choose? Or two people just getting married for the financial benefits, even if they have no intention of having a relationship?
__________________
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
|
01-17-2007, 08:38 PM | #130 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
Biology is powerful and consistent for the vast majority of cases, though. So when you're talking genetics, that's a different matter. Quote:
Quote:
But the biology intrinsic to a relationship is another matter. Men are different from women in a way that is far, far more consistent and can be and has been studied. The relationship between a man and a woman therefore, logically, will also be different, genetically, than that which takes place between a woman and a woman or a man and a man. That can also be studied, and should be. Quote:
Gender observably makes a big difference across cultural divides and there are strong parallels between male and female roles across cultures and throughout history. I have already cited the Genetics Organization as providing evidence for this. So telling me that so many factors influence relationships that this one shouldn't be singled out doesn't make any sense. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
That was my only point. I'm not saying anything about homosexuals and heterosexuals being different, or about maturity level or anything else. Quote:
I'll respond to the rest of your argument when I find time.
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-17-2007 at 08:58 PM. |
|||||||||||
01-18-2007, 12:42 AM | #131 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
But anyway, regardless of where it comes from, it is the sense which is generally meant when one objects that homosexuality is not natural; that being the case, it is mere sophistry to prove it is natural, when you mean something else by "natural". Lief, it wasn't pedophilia, but pederasty. Pedophilia involves pre-pubescents; pederasty adolescents. Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
||
01-18-2007, 01:34 AM | #132 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
|
01-18-2007, 02:53 AM | #133 | ||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
It's illegal to publicize that cigarettes are healthy. That is comparable to saying that homosexuality is fine, and that's what you'd be doing if you gave it marriage status. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But of course we're allowed to outlaw lifestyles from other countries because we don't deem them proper. In Columbia and Afghanistan, it's fine in many areas to be involved in the drug trade. That's a lifestyle we consider improper. And in ancient Rome, men used to have complete control over their families in an intensely patriarchal society. We don't consider that to be a "proper gender role." Though your putting that term in quotes is in itself improper, for you certainly aren't quoting me there. When you use the word "proper," that again implies morality, which means you again are assuming I'm just talking about my personal moral views and nothing else. When have I once mentioned morality in this thread as a reason for not going for homosexual marriage? I don't think I have once, except to ward off accusations that that is what I'm saying. I resent your typecasting me like this. Quote:
And as for women voting, there is already plenty of evidence that they do just as well as men in the classroom, or possibly even better. So you don't need any more studies there- you already have them. In both those cases, studies have already been done and the cases are proven. In the case of homosexuality, there is a very good reason to doubt that it is the same as heterosexuality in terms of the relationship kind, and there is no strong evidence available yet as to what kind of a relationship it is, exactly. It is understudied. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
While many women are more nurturing and focused on peaceful resolution, others, noting that their ability to lead a country in a difficult situation might be doubted, have overcompensated and been much more aggressive than most men simply because they want to prove themselves. That is a major problem right now that has been noted in the political science field. There's a dual problem with women in high places- they tend to be either an extreme hawk or an extreme dove, much of the time. My own thinking on this matter is a little unclear. While I note that there are problems with women in leadership positions, there have been astounding female leaders. Elizabeth the First of England and "King" Hatchepsut of Egypt are two good examples. So while overall problems tend to exist, there are a few glowing exceptions. That makes it a bit trickier, for me. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-18-2007 at 02:59 AM. |
||||||||||||||||||
01-18-2007, 03:36 AM | #134 | |
of the House of Fëanor
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,150
|
Quote:
__________________
Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
|
01-18-2007, 04:09 AM | #135 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I find it ironic that you call me a closet bigot based on a quote from an argument of mine in which I was saying that there is ample evidence Negroes are equally intelligent to Caucasians and just as much people as everyone else. That irony, I find quite amusing .
Lyndon B. Johnson referred to blacks as Negroes throughout his speech arguing for the Civil Rights Act. I watched the speech last week. The terms "black" or "Negro" never had any racist connotations when used in the past, and saying "African American" all the time is longwinded. "Black" or "Negro" are not racist terms. That's just modern hypersensitivity. I don't care in the slightest if anyone calls me a "white." It's simply a use of language intended to make conversation easier. But go ahead and think me a racist if you want .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-18-2007 at 04:18 AM. |
01-18-2007, 06:39 AM | #136 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Negroes Lief? Let's review.
Black? Yes. African-American? Yes. Negro? No. Negro is way out of date and has racist connotations. Its usage needs to stop. This message is brought to you with your best interests in mind.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
01-18-2007, 10:49 AM | #137 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
|
Quote:
Wiki is no kind of source for this discussion. Look up the websites of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association. Look at their well-researched statements and see the evidence which is cited. Quote:
As for some/most, that is a question of both culture and of quality of evidence. If we're thinking about what's medically true, I don't think we should poll everyone in the world to decide such issues: they should be based on a systematic assessment of unbiased evidence. (From which the APA position derives). If we're thinking about what's "culturally true", then it is clear that a) Western culture is gradually embracing gay rights in a progressive way and b) the views of those outside that culture don't apply. So, basically, what this boils down to is that some religious believers have a problem with gays and will still make the argument against gay marriage no matter what the evidence is. They seem to think they "own" marriage. It will be polluted in some way by the sodomites. Note also that many gay couples have no interest in "simulating" the straight married relationship. All they want is the same legal recognition and rights that straight people have. I think a society has to have a pretty clear reason for denying important rights to subsets of its population. Anyway, my best pal, who is bent as a nine pound note, announced the other day that he is getting CPed (Civil Partnershipped) to his partner of 15 years or so. Their reasons are mostly legal: pensions, wills, medical consent etc etc etc. After the ceremony, we will cruise down the Thames on their narrow boat quaffing champagne, then alight at their private mooring and get royally toasted in their honour. Hooray for gay marriage! Last edited by The Gaffer : 01-18-2007 at 11:06 AM. |
||
01-18-2007, 02:09 PM | #138 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
1) Marriage loses its meaning. If it is not defined as between a man and a woman, then its definition is up for grabs. Polygamy is the next step. I'm sure that if homosexual marriage becomes commonplace, polygamy will be right around the corner and probably would become law in my lifetime. Other kinds of sexual relationships, though, may very well also gain legal equivalence under the banner of freedom and tolerance. Marriage could become anything. 2) Heterosexual and homosexual relationships are innately different, because men and women are mentally genetically different from one another, so applying laws that have been tried and tested over hundreds of years in many different countries as regards heterosexual unions to the untested and untried homosexual relationships is negligence. It'll be a legal snare, because some laws that have been designed to work for the two genders together will probably not work so well for people of the same gender. Different laws should perhaps be made for homosexual relationships that are based upon tests and studies of what relationships between members of the same gender are like. It'll be a legal mess. 3) If our government gives homosexuals marriage rights, it will be saying implicitly through its action that homosexuality is fine. It will be doing that without having established tests, studies or scientific research to find out. That would be as the medical community saying a new drug was fine without having tested it. What homosexual and heterosexual relationships are like has to be studied more, and comparisons and contrasts made, before they are given legal equivalence. If homosexuality is harmful, innocent people will be harmed if homosexual relationships are given marriage status because those people will see the government's verdict and choose to embrace their homosexual instincts because the government says homosexuality is fine by giving it marriage rights. I do not want innocent people to be hurt by the government being misleading. It's the same thing as with abortion nowadays. Often, people think it's okay just because it's legal. If homosexual relationships have marriage equivalence, the government will be saying that they are okay without knowing they are. I can't see any contradiction between these arguments. Can you? Quote:
But as to the rest of what you said, there isn't enough solid systematic evidence. That's what I've been arguing we need to get. Throughout the psychiatric branch, homosexuality is considered understudied. I strongly disagree with your stated conclusion. Quote:
Quote:
But again, my main point on this matter is, as I pointed out earlier and previously cited, the psychiatric branch recognizes that homosexuality is decidedly understudied. Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-18-2007 at 02:11 PM. |
|||||
01-18-2007, 03:45 PM | #139 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
I'm not sure why you have such a huge problem with me.
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
01-18-2007, 03:47 PM | #140 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
But I only use the word "Negro" because it's less longwinded than "African American." If the word "black" is okay with everybody (I was under the impression that people had problems with it nowadays, too), I'll use that one instead. It's just as short a word as "Negro." So that's settled .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 01-18-2007 at 03:49 PM. |
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
marriage | katya | General Messages | 384 | 01-21-2012 12:13 AM |
Homosexual marriage | Rían | General Messages | 999 | 12-06-2006 04:46 PM |
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 988 | 02-06-2006 01:33 PM |
Ave Papa - we have a new Pope | MrBishop | General Messages | 133 | 09-26-2005 10:19 AM |
Women, last names and marriage... | afro-elf | General Messages | 55 | 01-09-2003 01:37 AM |