03-20-2005, 10:30 PM | #121 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
You say "moral" as though it were a bad word. The current definition of marriage is between a man and a woman. In most places. Acceptance of homosexuality means a redefinition to this. The state is saying that couplings aside from a man and a woman have the right to make this statement. And if two men can do the job of raising a child as well as a man and a woman, then three men can too, or four men, or five. Indeed, surely they can do the job even better (since marriage with a partnership is seen as normally preferable to situations with a single parent). So as far as the child is concerned, this kind of marriage would sound great. As far as interpersonal relationships is concerned- why not three? Really, why not?
Quote:
It already has been defined as between a man and a woman. Why do you think it would it stop with two adults, really? Quote:
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
||
03-20-2005, 11:10 PM | #122 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
About the French - treaty rights are what allow that, which are under the Constitution as assuredly as citizenship. You CAN'T marry a North Korean (unless they become naturalized)... so my point stands.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
03-21-2005, 02:17 AM | #123 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
I couldn't give you anything more then a lame answer at the moment. Not without the proper research done, the proper questions asked to the proper person. I don't know if it's worth it, on this particular matter, so I'll leave you with the stronger argument in conclusion.
I really do believe that polygamy will be something that follows rapidly after homosexual marriage, if that takes root in the US, which it . . . I think it probably will . But not until we get a new president. The animal thing might take place and might not. If it does, it probably would take a while. Meanwhile, I feel that I probably am done here for now. If I get the time, I'll come back to Entmoot more this week. I hope I do have time! I do feel as though some of my earlier posts didn't receive very much in the way of responses. We seem to have spent more time arguing here and there over a few details. Forming conjectures about what might happen after homosexuality, rather then about homosexuality itself, and discussing morality, which is off-topic. Not that that isn't my fault too! It's just also . . . off-topic. Anyway, I'm signing off for tonight. ~Lief
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-21-2005 at 02:20 AM. |
03-21-2005, 02:47 AM | #124 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
|
I certainly do hope you can come back to the discussion... regardless of our disagreement, it is a good discussion, I feel. I think the problem is that the only points that can really be directly debated are issues like the narrow legal points I've been bringing up, because there isn't broad scientific evidence about the effects of gay marriage, and other than that and the law, it all comes down to subjective things like morals. And pushing ones morals on someone else (me on you or you on me or anyone on anyone) is a touchy subject to discuss.
__________________
Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
03-21-2005, 03:02 AM | #125 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
|
Quote:
Quote:
After you respond to that, I'd like one more response. Do you agree with me that there are definite differences between the natures of the two different genders, male and female? Agh, it's late. I may be able to respond to one more post though before getting off, since I'm in the process of writing a friend a PM anyway . . .
__________________
If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 03-21-2005 at 03:05 AM. |
||
03-21-2005, 06:26 AM | #126 | ||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
Quote:
My answer to your question, if a mother could fill a father's role and vice versa - maybe she could, maybe she couldn't. That depends on the persons. Your argument that research needs to be done is poor IMO. Look at how diverse and special every family is today. The world hasn't gone under because of families that differ a bit from society's standards. Quote:
Before the Civil War, Afro-Americans could not marry. I suppose Afro-American marriages and families were different than American ones, due to another cultural heritage. However that is not a valid reason for why they shouldn't be able to marry. Before the 60s, interracial marriages were forbidden in the US. I guess people thought mixed race families could have their differences too, when compared to "normal" American families. Still, that's not a good reason for prohibiting marriage for them. This talk about how we must take a really careful look at how kids are affected by gay parents, it's not too different from the examples above. People most likely thought that interracial marriage was something unnatural, just like people who oppose same sex marriage think it is unnatural. So what? Are we to blindly follow nature? We're not animals for heaven's sake, we do what we want I believe when people say "oh, we must look at what's best for the kids!", they're really saying that they don't trust homosexuals with children. As if homosexuality is something utterly abnormal that children must be protected from. It's not unusual that children lack a mother figure or father figure but they do well anyway.
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
||
03-21-2005, 06:34 AM | #127 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
genderisation point
my mother is the head of our house, she manages everything, from my younger brother and sister, to finance, to housework, and everything in between, my father works at night, and so therefore takes on very little of the masculine parent role, i suppose that makes me, and my family, unnatural?? however, me, my twin siste and my 21 yr old sister have all turned out fine, and i believe that my younger brother and sister will turn out fine also |
03-21-2005, 06:38 AM | #128 |
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 3,891
|
I dunno if you've turned out fine. You're gay, aren't you?
__________________
An unwritten post is a delightful universe of infinite possibilities. Set down one word, however, and it immediately becomes earthbound. Set down one sentence and it’s halfway to being just like every other bloody entry that’s ever been written. ☻ |
03-21-2005, 06:40 AM | #129 |
The Intermittent One
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: here and there
Posts: 4,671
|
and my twin sister is bisexual, but hey i don't care, no one else cares,
so, um, yeh.... |
03-21-2005, 01:26 PM | #130 | |
Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 28
|
Quote:
If you look at the bible-belt in the US there is always an air of hatred from the caucasian whites to anything that is different. It used to be racist anger, which would be fair enough if large groups of blacks had invaded the US but they were brought as slaves and paid nothing. It's the same ideal with the homosexual issue. I'm sure homosexuals have even been around before the blacks! Before anyone in the US thought to bring blacks over there were most likely many homosexuals in the US. Hell look at Ancient Greece. It was the Mecca of knowledge for mankind and a large % of grown men had male concubines. The ideal that this is wrong because the United States says it differentiates from the norm is obsurd. If the churches don't want to sanctify it, fine. I'm sure there are few homosexuals who would want a sanctified marriage, the issue is in the eyes of the law, and many other industrialized countries allready agree that in the eyes of the law it is indeed a right of the people to form that type of bond. |
|
03-21-2005, 01:39 PM | #131 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
As for the slavery issue - you might want to check the history books ON WHO brought slavery to this country. The US wasn't even a nation during that time. And I'm tired of us getting blamed for it. If you want someone to blame - blame the Europeans who broght it to these lands and the Africans who sold their enemies to the Europeans. You have mahy bigotted statements in your post - regarding "right-wingers" and whites. When people make generalized statements like you have about blacks or hispanics - the liberal camp goes off about racism. But it sure as hell okay to make bigotted statements about whites.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-21-2005 at 01:42 PM. |
|
03-21-2005, 01:53 PM | #132 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
Many states have what the rest of the world has and much more - most states allow civil unions and MOST allow for gay couples to jointly adopt. So I would like to know where all the "industrialized nations" are that you speak of sicne that is far from the truth. Marriage is determined by each state. You get a state marriage license not a US marriage license.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-21-2005 at 01:54 PM. |
|
03-21-2005, 02:00 PM | #133 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 03-21-2005 at 02:02 PM. |
|
03-21-2005, 02:04 PM | #134 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-21-2005, 02:09 PM | #135 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
03-21-2005, 02:18 PM | #136 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
As Lief said, he wasn't saying that homosexuals are like lizards! I think what is more accurate is that we are ALL like lizards - heterosexuals AND homomsexuals, it doesn't matter- if evolution is true. Why do so many people fight on some threads, saying it's just conceit and pride to say we're different from the other animals in any way, and then turn around and contradict themselves and say we're NOT animals on other threads when it suits their purpose? As G.K. Chesterton said, "The man of this school goes first to a political meeting, where he complains that savages are treated as if they are beasts; then he takes his hat and umbrella and goes on to a scientific meeting, where he proves that they practically are beasts." Think about it
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
|
03-21-2005, 03:06 PM | #137 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
Forget about evolution in this thread anyway. Personally I think we are animals, and I also think there are examples of homosexuality in other animals besides ourselves.
Even if there wasn't, it doesn't matter, I just think it's interesting. The point is, it occurs naturally in human beings. (Yay R*an is back! )
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
03-21-2005, 03:14 PM | #138 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
My point wasn't to debate the merits (or lack of merits) of evolution; my point was to say that if a person thinks we're the same as any other animal (which many people have said here), then why point out some animal behaviors and say they're wrong, and point to others and say, "well, the animals do it, so it's ok with us!" Isn't that logically inconsistent?
Do you see what I mean? (Yay, Nurvi's here! )
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
03-21-2005, 03:22 PM | #139 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Quote:
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
|
03-21-2005, 03:51 PM | #140 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
|
I agree R*an but I can't really respond further because I didn't originally say that we weren't animals. I do agree with everything else Jonathan said in his last post though.
Interesting JD. If someone believes that homosexuality is natural, they're more inclined to be okay with gay marriage. They won't necessarily agree, but they are more likely than someone who doesn't think it's natural. We do have the GLB thread for that train of thought though.
__________________
"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
Quote:
|
||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Homosexual marriage II | klatukatt | General Messages | 736 | 05-15-2013 01:15 PM |
marriage | katya | General Messages | 384 | 01-21-2012 12:13 AM |
Gays, lesbians, bisexuals | Nurvingiel | General Messages | 988 | 02-06-2006 01:33 PM |
Ave Papa - we have a new Pope | MrBishop | General Messages | 133 | 09-26-2005 10:19 AM |
Women, last names and marriage... | afro-elf | General Messages | 55 | 01-09-2003 01:37 AM |