Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Draken
[B]But Gaffer, SURELY you know that we must all stand shoulder to shoulder in a war against terrorism? Though it's funny, I do seem to recall there being terrorist attacks against a whole range of western nations before September 11, which didn't seem to end up with anyone standing at anyone's shoulder in particular.[/b[

What brought the September 11 terrorist attack so much notariety is the sheer number of innocent people who were murdered all at once. It was a shock, to say the least. I don't recall any terrorist attack anywhere in the world that had so many innocent, civilian lives murdered in one sweep. If you know some, in the last 10 years, please post them. I'd like to learn more.

In fact the usual sort of response from a suddenly VERY keen proponent of the War on Terrorism was "Well you've brought it on yourselves and one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, oh and by the way we've just shipped them another boat load of Armalites."

Odd how times change.

Who said that anyone deserved that. I know I didn't. I knew that there were terrorist attacks in Europe before September 11, I just assumed those countries were handling their own business and didn't need the US to go in and handle your affairs. (Another case of "come save us USA". Sheesh! ) I don't recall anyone asking for our assistance with their terrorist problem, anyway. (Let's all blame to US for our problems, why not, they seem an easy target. ) However, now that we have become involved in a more personal way, we are going to get into the fray, regardless of your opinions of whether we should be there or not.

It would be easier to fight against a common enemy together, than to fight him alone. Sorry you don't see it that way.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Hemel
Sadly it has not surprised me to see how someone who may not agree with a particular view being put forward here is immediately spoken of in terms which would suggest that they are rendered sub-human. (Of course, we know what happens once one begins to see other people as not-human .... ... )

* Big round of applause *

Also illustrates why being at "war" is a rather convenient metaphor, as you can label people who disagree with you as "traitors".

Originally posted by Hemel

Thank you Draken as well. I think maybe it has been forgotten how long we over here in the UK suffered terrorist attacks, and, might I add, there were certainly allegations being made over who might have been funding or partially funding some of those attacks.

Yes. It's worth remembering that the IRA very nearly succeeded in assassinating the Prime Minister and entire British cabinet. I don't recall invading Ireland at that time. Less than a year later, Thatcher was signing the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

Originally posted by Hemel
On another matter entirely. The queen? Ah, well, I'm a fan. I am not at all happy about the hangers-on, but I really do believe she does the very best she can and is an immense asset to our country. I'm lucky enough to have met also Prince Charles - he was immensely courteous, and I think has been very much misunderstood. Anyone know, as a matter of interest, any comparative figures on expenditure/income for country for Bush and the queen?

I think the amount she gets from the Civil List is pretty small, but the Government pays for so much of her stuff (buildings and the like) that it's hard to say.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
By the way - the after thought thing is only because you guys got tidbits of US news. There were MANY reasons why WE were going in there - WMD was only a small piece. It was Blair who wanted to use only the WMD as a reason for going in - that is why 65% of Americans still support us going into Iraq and aren't concerned about not having found any WMD.

Latest polls: Was worth going to war/ Not worth it

CNN/Gallup 56% / 42%
11/16


ABC News 52% / 44%
11/12- 11/16


CBS News
11/10 50% / 43%


Still a majority, but a big drop.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Yes. It's worth remembering that the IRA very nearly succeeded in assassinating the Prime Minister and entire British cabinet. I don't recall invading Ireland at that time. Less than a year later, Thatcher was signing the Anglo-Irish Agreement.

You didn't need to invade Ireland, you were already there

[Ruinel]

Despite that, Dunedain, attacks against civilians is no way to win the sympathy of others.

[Radagast]

Eärniel, isn't Belgium also a Monarchy?

[Earniel]

It is indeed.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
You didn't need to invade Ireland, you were already there

Northern Ireland, last time I looked, is part of the United Kingdom.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Northern Ireland, last time I looked, is part of the United Kingdom.

Really? Wow, thanks for clearing that up

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
Northern Ireland, last time I looked, is part of the United Kingdom.

Why split that island up? Do the majority of Northern Ireland want to be a part of the UK? Is it written as law anywhere that they can seceed from the UK anytime they wish like Texas could from the USA? (Just a request for more information, since I don't know your laws)

[The Gaffer]

Yes, they do.

The controversial thing about Northern Ireland was Partition, in 19?? (16?, 26?) when the Republic declared independence.

The Protestants, who formed the majority in Ulster (one of the Irish Provinces), didn't want to be part of a Catholic state (for example, abortion and, until recently, contraception are illegal in Ireland) and wanted to remain part of the UK. Hence the terms "Loyalist" and "Unionist".

Since then, Northern Ireland has had a mostly Protestant, Loyalist population. However, there is a large Catholic minority, most of whom would probaby prefer to be living in a united Ireland.

The present troubles started in the late 60s, in fact because Loyalists were attacking Catholics, who asked for protection from the British Army. So, it's ironic that the troops were originally sent in to protect the Catholic community.

However, things pretty soon got turned around such that the Army were seen as part of the British occupation which oppressed the Catholic minority, you had the IRA declaring war on them, you had things like Bloody Sunday when troops opened fire on an unarmed crowd, and then you had about 25 years of people blowing each other up and shooting each other.

The situation has been resolved by Devolution. There is a devolved Northern Ireland Assembly where politicians from all parties, including formerly active members of terrorist organisations, make policy in areas such as education, health care policing, etc. They could vote to secede from the UK, but about 60% of the population would rather slam their heads in the car door so I don't see it happening.

The Assembly is currently suspended because they can't stop arguing with each other (and within their own parties) long enough to do anything.

And yes, the IRA did get funding from the USA.

[Ruinel]

Thanks Gaffer. Nice to be educated on other countries.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
And yes, the IRA did get funding from the USA.

do you mean via the traditional underground Irish Bar/Irish Gentleman's Club in Boston/New York/Philadelphia etc backing or do you mean direct support from the US government? I can remember being told what bars to avoid in Rockaway, NY because they were "IRA bars".

[Ruinel]

I'm pretty sure he was indicating the Irish Bar/Irish Gentleman's Club in Boston/New York/Philadelphia etc backing and not the direct support from the US government. At least that's how I interpreted it, and I know damn well that the US government never shipped a load of arms to Ireland.

[The Gaffer]

It wasn't official, but there were some pretty influential donors and well-organised charity-fronted funding routes.

Noraid was one such channel. A sample of their views are:

The Government of Northern Ireland under the guise of Law, subjects nearly 50% of its population to terrorism and double standards.

and

The British Government continues its acts of Terrorism dealing in injustice via British Loyalist terrorists supported by the RUC, the State sponsored police force and local Military Forces in Northern Ireland.

They've got a point: there is evidence of collusion between the British security forces, the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary, i.e. the police) and Loyalist terrorist organisations like the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force).

For example, it's alleged that we "let slip" a few IRA suspects' details to the UVF, who would promptly shoot them, usually in front of their families.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
It wasn't official, but there were some pretty influential donors and well-organised charity-fronted funding routes.

Noraid was one such channel. A sample of their views are:

and

They've got a point: there is evidence of collusion between the British security forces, the RUC (Royal Ulster Constabulary, i.e. the police) and Loyalist terrorist organisations like the UVF (Ulster Volunteer Force).

For example, it's alleged that we "let slip" a few IRA suspects' details to the UVF, who would promptly shoot them, usually in front of their families.

Yeah well don't make it out like it was the US government when it clearly wasn't

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Yeah well don't make it out like it was the US government when it clearly wasn't

I never did. Someone asked for clarification.

However, would it be more or less than the support that Al-Qaida got from Iraq?

[Dwarven Sen]

The IRA bombed my city a few years ago, and i never hurt them. Why should i care what happens to them. members of my family were just a block away when that thing went off.

Believe me when i say that I'm not a believer that war and the attacking of civilians is the right way to make your voice heard on a global scale.

i find it disappointing, not that your president was invited to our fair island (though i could point out 20 people right now who were), but that since his visit became iminent every political force tried to pass the blame along. As for the london mayor, he's just trying to keep his city running on schedule. have you ever been in london at rush hour, yeesh.

The matter of bowing to Her Majesty is basic courtesy. When you go to someones home you are polite (at least you are meant to be). This is just on a more world-leader scale. The protocol involved would not make your president lessened or appear subject to Her. It's very convoluted and i think someones been twisting the facts. It's not like every citizen in england's expecting him to go down on one knee to Her. mind you, if She's got to get double glazing just for him...

[Hemel]

I also was very close to an IRA bombing, in London.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by The Gaffer
There's been rather a lot of right-wing doublethink echoing around this thread:

(btw - in case anyone thinks this post is directed at THEM, I'm actually directing it at all of the people who have been putting forward these views)

I'm surprised you hadn't worked it out, but the reason people are demonstrating against OUR government's policy is that it's OUR government, and it's our responsibility as democratic citizens to make a stink when that government is wrong.

The terrorists are not our terrorists, no matter how much you would like to depict us as being "on their side" (which I find offensive in the extreme and wilfully ignorant). That's why we don't demonstrate against them.

Every democratic society quite rightly has debate, sometimes it's even open and vigorous. In this case, the people who are most stridently favour the war in Iraq are in the bloody White House and 10 Downing Street (and they brook no dissent from within their own ranks) while those who oppose it are out in the streets, so that's why the debate has to happen in the way it does.

The thing is Gaffer - there are MANY countries at the UN only 40 miles from where I live who SUPPORT terrorism - but you don't see them being marched against. So I disagree. I
m referring to why don't these protesters march against the countries who support them. You might have heard of these countries Lybia, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, etc.