TTT extended Edition

[zinnite]

Originally posted by azalea
I agree, squinty, the fact that he let them rough him up didn't add to my view of movie-Faramir's character as closer to that of the book. I think they shot it originally because they felt they needed to make it very obvious to the viewers WHY Gollum felt betrayed by Frodo.

I think the fact that, from Gollum's perspective (which was made quite clear--"why master, why!?"), Frodo tricked him into being captured and tied up would be enough to establish the sense of betrayal. Turning Faramir's men into petty thugs was ridiculous and insulting. Aren't the men of Gondor supposed to be noble soldiers fighting evil? No, they're apparently a bunch of guys who have no problem beating the crap out of a starving, emaciated, frightened creature one-third their size. There's no reason that piece should have been filmed in the first place, let alone put into the EE. If the average filmgoer cannot figure it out, that's their problem.

[Black Breathalizer]

Originally posted by zinnite
Aren't the men of Gondor supposed to be noble soldiers fighting evil?

Gollum is evil.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Gollum is evil.

Again an ignorant statement. You might want to (re)read the books - so you can know that Gollum wasn't necessarily evil. And at that point in the book - he was Smeagol more than Gollum.

[zinnite]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
Gollum is evil.

I'll be more precise then: fighting against the evil that is about to take over and enslave all of Middle-Earth. Mordor. Sauron. The guy with the eye.

And of course the empahisis of my statement was not on the evil, but on the noble nature of the Gondorians. In the film we see none of that, only them savagely beating the creature (who is only trying to get away), evil or no.

And JD is right--Gollum was a very mixed character, and hardly purely evil. That should be obvious to even novice fans of the film.

[azalea]

Sween -- I agree, it seems like he wanted to take every character on a "journey." I felt like there were enough characters on a journey (character arc) already, that we didn't need to see Faramir and Theoden (outside of the first "awakening") go on one. The fact that Faramir "foils" his brother and falls in love with Eowyn is plenty for his character, and Theoden's transformation from dottering old man to becoming once again a valiant leader is plenty for him. They already have the Aragorn arc, the Frodo one, the Sam one, the Merry and Pippin one, the Eowyn one, the Arwen one they've brought forth, and the Gandalf one we've already seen (Grey to White), plus the Gimli and Legolas one (becoming friendly and eventually inseparable), AND the Gollum one, that there are enough arcs already in the story to make several ovals!( <these are directed at myself for that last comment :P ).

[jerseydevil]

I just saw TT extended for the first tikme last night. Jackson is more of an idiot than I imagined. He continues to imply that pipeweed is pot and then he also has Merry and Pippin as the down idiots in Flotsom and Jetsom. So much for them"growing" in TT as everyone claimed.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I just saw TT extended for the first tikme last night. Jackson is more of an idiot than I imagined. He continues to imply that pipeweed is pot and then he also has Merry and Pippin as the down idiots in Flotsom and Jetsom. So much for them"growing" in TT as everyone claimed.

Well, I don't see it that way, and I don't think they are idiots in the movies either. I like how they are, I enjoy their happiness and laughter. I think it helps with Pippin, cuz it shows his youth. But, that's my opinion...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Well, I don't see it that way, and I don't think they are idiots in the movies either. I like how they are, I enjoy their happiness and laughter. I think it helps with Pippin, cuz it shows his youth. But, that's my opinion...

What youth? They look like they're 30 years old. And they don't seem happy - they seem completely braindead and morons.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
What youth? They look like they're 30 years old. And they don't seem happy - they seem completely braindead and morons.

That's your opinion...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
That's your opinion...

Yes it is - and I didn't say otherwise. I seriously doubt you would want to spend much time with Pippin and Merry though by the way they act.

As I have said though repeatedly - Pippin and Merry from the books were more like wide-eyed innocents seeing the world for the first time. More like it is when someone sees NY who has never been there before. I enjoy showing people around who have never been here before - but if they acted like Pippin and Merry in the movies - I would quickly get annoyed. That is why I do not think that jackson captured them properly and I think he turned them in comic relief and just plain bumbling idiots.

[cassiopeia]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I just saw TT extended for the first tikme last night. Jackson is more of an idiot than I imagined. He continues to imply that pipeweed is pot and then he also has Merry and Pippin as the down idiots in Flotsom and Jetsom. So much for them"growing" in TT as everyone claimed.

Told you so!

I don't think these scenes show them as innocents, but as idiots. The way Merry tries to measure Pippin's height makes me cringe every time. You don't need to show Pippin's youth in the movies -- it's not that important. It would be better to imply nothing about Pippin's age than make him stupid.

I suppose we should hope for something better in the ROTK.

[BeardofPants]

Dunny, why do you use ellipses all the time?

[Artanis]

Originally posted by zinnite
I think the fact that, from Gollum's perspective (which was made quite clear--"why master, why!?"), Frodo tricked him into being captured and tied up would be enough to establish the sense of betrayal. Turning Faramir's men into petty thugs was ridiculous and insulting. Aren't the men of Gondor supposed to be noble soldiers fighting evil? No, they're apparently a bunch of guys who have no problem beating the crap out of a starving, emaciated, frightened creature one-third their size. There's no reason that piece should have been filmed in the first place, let alone put into the EE. If the average filmgoer cannot figure it out, that's their problem.

I have watched TTT EE a couple of times now and I absolutely agree with you. I cannot say how much I loathe that scene. It completely ruins Faramir's character. Having him send the Ring to Gondor is bad enough, but letting him stand by and watch his men beat up their prisoner is just way out. Where is the learned, noble man with an air of Númenor about him? Arrrrgh!!

On the other hand, the Osgiliath scene with Denethor and his sons were very well done. I appreciate seeing the love between the two brothers, despite their father's attitude, and I enjoyed watching how much Boromir was loved by the people of Gondor.

Must mention the Huorns too. Nice to have them in. They were great.

[Black Breathalizer]

As usual, we have a bunch of folks overreacting to a scene straight out of Tolkien.

To put it bluntly, the Gondorian soldiers were provoked to violence. Gollum struggled against his captors. He clawed, scratched, and snapped at the soldiers. No wonder they weren't particularly gentle with him--which is exactly the way Tolkien described their behavior towards Gollum.

Maybe you didn't picture as much violence as Jackson did. But once again, you can't fault him for taking something Tolkien implied in the text and expanding upon it for film.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

originally posted by Black Breathalizer
To put it bluntly, the Gondorian soldiers were provoked to violence. Gollum struggled against his captors. He clawed, scratched, and snapped at the soldiers. No wonder they weren't particularly gentle with him--which is exactly the way Tolkien described their behavior towards Gollum.
_______________________________________

Actually, I believe the Gondorians did not use violence on Gollum, only threatened to use force if he continued resisting.
"At that moment the great black shape of Anborn loomed up behind him and came down on him. He twisted round like lightning, all wet and slimy as he was, wriggling like an eel, biting and scratching like a cat. But two more men came up out of the shadows.
"Hold still!" said one. "or we'll stick you as full of pins as a hedgehog. Hold still!"

That's a use of, and threat of employing more, minimal force, not the gratuitous caught on video police-style beating up seen in the dvd.

But it should be noted that Faramir doesn't participate and seems to be ordering the beating to stop.

[Artanis]

I didn't see Gollum fight or struggle in the scene I'm talking about. There was no need for violence. The Gondorians kicked him when he was lying on the ground.

This is what the book says:

A man came and beckoned to the hobbits, and took them to the recess at the back of the cave. Faramir was sitting there in his chair, and the lamp had been rekindled in its niche above his head. He signed to them to sit down on the stools beside him. `Bring wine for the guests,' he said. `And bring the prisoner to me.'
The wine was brought, and then Anborn came carrying Gollum. He removed the cover from Gollum's head and set him on his feet standing behind him to support him. Gollum blinked, hooding the malice of his eyes with their heavy pale lids. A very miserable creature he looked, dripping and dank, smelling of fish (he still clutched one in his hand); his sparse locks were hanging like rank weed over his bony brows, his nose was snivelling.
`Loose us! Loose us! ' he said. `The cord hurts us, yes it does, it hurts us, and we've done nothing.'
`Nothing? ' said Faramir, looking at the wretched creature with a keen glance, but without any expression in his face either of anger, or pity, or wonder. 'Nothing? Have you never done anything worthy of binding or of worse punishment? However, that is not for me to judge, happily. But tonight you have come where it is death to come. The fish of this pool are dearly bought.'
Gollum dropped the fish from his hand. `Don't want fish,' he said.
'The price is not set on the fish,' said Faramir. `Only to come here and look on the pool bears the penalty of death. I have spared you so far at the prayer of Frodo here, who says that of him at least you have deserved some thanks. But you must also satisfy me. What is your name? Whence do you come? And whither do you go? What is your business? '
`We are lost, lost,' said Gollum. 'No name, no business, no Precious, nothing. Only empty. Only hungry; yes, we are hungry. A few little fishes, nasty bony little fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death. So wise they are; so just, so very just.'
'Not very wise,' said Faramir. 'But just: yes perhaps, as just as our little wisdom allows. Unloose him Frodo! ' Faramir took a small nail-knife from his belt and handed it to Frodo. Gollum misunderstanding the gesture, squealed and fell down.
'Now, Sméagol! ' said Frodo. 'You must trust me. I will not desert you. Answer truthfully, if you can. It will do you good not harm.' He cut the cords on Gollum's wrists and ankles and raised him to his feet.

There is no struggle or fighting from Gollum's side here, and no violence from Faramir's side. What you are referring to and what Tuor have quoted is the scene by the pool where Gollum is captured, which was done nicely in the movie btw.

However, my complaint is not that the scene isn't taken directly from the book, it's that Faramir's character deviates from the book. It is my strong opinion that the Faramir in the book would never have permitted, and certainly not watched without interfering, such a treatment of Gollum as was shown in the dvd. Faramir in the book was stern and strong, but would not turn to violence unless it was necessary.

[Artanis]

About Merry and Pip, here I agree with Dúnedain. I don't think they came out as stupid in the movies. I would rather say playful and light-spoken, which is in line with the way Hobbits generally are.

[Ringil]

After Gollum's capture and interrogation (in the book), Faramir says, "Take this creature away, Anborn. Treat him gently, but watch him."

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
About Merry and Pip, here I agree with Dúnedain. I don't think they came out as stupid in the movies. I would rather say playful and light-spoken, which is in line with the way Hobbits generally are.

They were playful and lightspoken in the flotsom and jetsom scene? "duh duh, I'm pippin " You think that after the way they acted there they have any business being Guard of the Citadel or Warrior of the Mark.

As for Gollum BB - the Gondorians NEVER held Gollum while one person punched him, nor did they then throw him against the wall. He was just afraid that they were going to hurt him in the books.

[Falagar]

About Merry and Pip, here I agree with Dúnedain. I don't think they came out as stupid in the movies. I would rather say playful and light-spoken, which is in line with the way Hobbits generally are.

I think the last scene with Merry and Pippin was very overdone. They weren't exactly stupid, but like they'd breathed some sort of pleasure-gas (don't know what "lyst-gass" is in english)