The Irony of Jackson Bashing

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Now you see? This is exactly what I mean when I say there is a double-standard here that says it's OK to do things to other writers work but not to Tolkien. I'm sure Thomas Mallory would have more objections to Excalibur than Tolkien would have to this set of movies. But of course, Mallory is somehow less important than Tolkien. I keep pointing to the fact that there has been NO proper Phillip K. Dick movie. Bladerunner, for instance, and Minority Report are just the most distorted screenplays you'll ever see. By comparison, Jackson is an angel.

No it's not the same - because the movie wasn't dumbed down. I have read the book Mort d'Arthur - and it keeps pretty close to the book. As for the the books - I haven't read those - so I'm just looking at them as movies. if I cared about those books - then I would be complaining - but as has been pointed out - Bladerunner did NOT even use the title of the book - neither did Excalibuir for that matter. Jackson USED the title of the books and CAME OUT and PUBLICLY declared that he was a huge fan of the books and was doing the movie for the fans. That is what pisses me off about Lord of the Rings.

By the way - if what is true about what I have seen on the Prisoner of Azkaban thread and Hemione is wearing lowriders - I WILL have a problem with the movie. Just like I had a problem with the ridiculous Disney The Black Cauldron. Chronicles of Prydain is what got me into reading and I was highly upset by the movie.

If you want me to go over all the movies I think were dumbed down from the books- I will. We're discussing Tolkien - I wasn't aware that I had to list all the movies I have NOT liked where I had read the books.

[mithrand1r]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel
I don't compare this movie to Bakshi's since I haven't seen it. However, I have seen pictures of the scenes, so I can comment that the animation sucks. Whatever comments you can make about Peter Jackson, his Middle-earth does look pretty realistic. For the most part, it was right in line with my mental images from the book - with the exception of Frodo, Pippin, Celeborn, Gimli, Treebeard, Theoden, Eowyn, Faramir, Arwen, Helm's Deep, and Orthanc. The Nazgul were very close (but no cigar.) That seems like a long list, but think of the stuff that, in my mind, he got bang on. Gandalf, Legolas, Merry, Sam, Galadriel, Mordor, The Shire, Aragorn, Boromir, Elrond (close enough), Gondor, Fangorn and many other little things that were perfect and therefore I didn't notice them.

I agree with you that some of the animation in Bakshi's version of LOTR is bad. (Primarily the "drawn over" live shots -- gives you an effect similar to "Tony the Tiger" in a cereal commercial).
The scenes that were strictly animated (without "drawn over" live shots) was not too bad, Although somethings were still not animated well. [elves in particular, they seem too bright (for lack of a better term) compared to their surroundings]

I agree with you that PJ&co. got much of the scenery, clothing, music, and setting details very well.

I will disagree to the degree that PJ&co. succeeded in adapting LOTR to film.

got to go for now.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by mithrand1r
I agree with you that some of the animation in Bakshi's version of LOTR is bad. (Primarily the "drawn over" live shots -- gives you an effect similar to "Tony the Tiger" in a cereal commercial).
The scenes that were strictly animated (without "drawn over" live shots) was not too bad, Although somethings were still not animated well. [elves in particular, they seem too bright (for lack of a better term) compared to their surroundings]

I agree with you that PJ&co. got much of the scenery, clothing, music, and setting details very well.

I will disagree to the degree that PJ&co. succeeded in adapting LOTR to film.

Those are my exact feelings also. I will add that I really liked Frodo, Merry and Pippin in Bakshi's version.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Elfhelm
Now you see? This is exactly what I mean when I say there is a double-standard here that says it's OK to do things to other writers work but not to Tolkien. I'm sure Thomas Mallory would have more objections to Excalibur than Tolkien would have to this set of movies. But of course, Mallory is somehow less important than Tolkien. I keep pointing to the fact that there has been NO proper Phillip K. Dick movie. Bladerunner, for instance, and Minority Report are just the most distorted screenplays you'll ever see. By comparison, Jackson is an angel.

This example isn't quite comparable. JRR Tolkien completely created Middle-earth, but Sir Thomas Mallory wasn't the first, or the only, or the best Arthurian author. Mallory actually might have appreciated the adaptation of Excalibur quite a bit since it captures Sir Kay and Sir Gawaine how Mallory portrayed them. Mallory's book isn't the definitive Arthurian legend, but JRR Tolkien is the definitive Middle-earth.

However, you do have a point because Jackson's adaptation of Tolkien gets criticized a lot more than other book to movie adaptations.

I criticize the Harry Potter movies for not being true to the book a lot more than I do LotR. LotR has some themes and scenes that I would have changed, but overall it's a good adaptation. Harry Potter movies are the opposite - it has scenes I would keep but is largely inaccurate.

Cheers! N.

edit: post #777! Sweet!

[Elfhelm]

And I bet the character of Kate in Timeline will be totally botched.

All I'm saying is, all movies botch all books. Get over it.

Just because some people here don't care about Phillip K. Dick doesn't mean it isn't relevant. The fact that they didn't even use the title shows how little respect they have for him. But just because Tolkien is more popular doesn't mean he's more important or more sacred than PKD.

And one other thing. Tolkien twisted a lot of other works to create his mythology. I don't hear anyone running in here defending the Eddas and Beowulf from JRRT's alterations.

The only reason it's different is because this is a Tolkien fan site, not a Lord of the Rings Movie fan site. I don't know why BB would expect anything different from this group. Every geek has an overarching principle by which he is defined. Here we are defined by our love of Tolkien, not our love of adaptations of Tolkien.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

I agree with you, Elfhelm; if I know how a book goes and I see a movie that butchers it, it ticks me off, period. It does so more in the case of Tolkien, because he is my favourite author, and there is often more to be butchered than in many other movies, due to the depth of the universe.

I disagree about the title; toting the name is separated from merely basing your work on it, in that it implies an intent to remain pretty close to the original work, in my opinion.

And I disagree about the Eddas; Tolkien didn't "alter" them, he "borrowed" from them, in my opinion. I don't mind if other fantasy authors "borrow" from Tolkien; to me, it's a totally different matter.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I disagree about the title; toting the name is separated from merely basing your work on it, in that it implies an intent to remain pretty close to the original work, in my opinion.

And I disagree about the Eddas; Tolkien didn't "alter" them, he "borrowed" from them, in my opinion. I don't mind if other fantasy authors "borrow" from Tolkien; to me, it's a totally different matter.

I agree with this GW. He didn't alter beowulf or anyt other mythology - he borrowed them - as does ALL fantasy books in some form or another.

Also Elfhelm - we don't have to get over it. At least I don't. It's my opinion and I have legitimate complaints about why I don't like the movies. You may disagree with my opinions - and that is your right. I think they are unintelligent action films. Thye are NOT what I wanted them to be and I will state my opinions about them.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Also Elfhelm - we don't have to get over it. At least I don't. It's my opinion and I have legitimate complaints about why I don't like the movies. You may disagree with my opinions - and that is your right. I think they are unintelligent action films. Thye are NOT what I wanted them to be and I will state my opinions about them.

Then you should show some respect to those of differing opinions instead of categorizing them and making generalizations about them...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
Then you should show some respect to those of differing opinions instead of categorizing them and making generalizations about them...

If you read my MANY MANY posts all the way from when FotR came out - you will see that have go into a lot of detail as to what I don't like about the movies. I have not gone into generalizations - I just choose not to go into as much detail anymore. If you want to see the details - then read all my posts.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
If you read my MANY MANY posts all the way from when FotR came out - you will see that have go into a lot of detail as to what I don't like about the movies. I have not gone into generalizations - I just choose not to go into as much detail anymore. If you want to see the details - then read all my posts.

No, you misunderstood me. I said to not make generalizations about the people who like them and their opinions about the movie, not about your dislikes of the movies. You were speaking about how you have your opinions and stuff, well so do others...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
No, you misunderstood me. I said to not make generalizations about the people who like them and their opinions about the movie, not about your dislikes of the movies. You were speaking about how you have your opinions and stuff, well so do others...

I haven't been making generalizations. I don't care if you like them or not, I don't care if BB doesn't like them. I however do not like BB's attitude toward the people who issue complaints against the movies. I accept your opinions - BB however has NEVER said anything other than how much he loves the movies. You weren't here in the beginning to see all the stuff he has said or his attitude toward the people who don't care for the movie.

[Ruinel]

Unfortunately, I didn't get to this thread in time to see the lovely posts by thranduil and Dunedain in response to my post to "BB and all forms of BB". Too frikin' bad.

[Nurvingiel]

Oh Ruinel... the debate was just getting good again



Anyway, I think there are only two things that could stop me from having criticisms about the movie.
1) That I didn't love the book
2) That I didn't enjoy the movie.

Except I did love the book. Tolkien created a wonderful image of Middle-earth in my imagination when I was 11. Tolkien is part of my childhood; I was, and am, a big reader, and I have fond memories of reading Lord of the Rings.

I also enjoyed the movie immensely. If I hadn't, I wouldn't bother criticising it because I wouldn't care. Jackson had a lot to go up against, Middle-earth already existed in my mind and he had to show it on screen. It would have been easier to start from scratch.

I liked the movie a lot, but I felt it could have been better. There were a few comprimises I could have done without. It's really just impossible for the movie to compete with Tolkien's Middle-earth that exists in my mind.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally posted by Black Breathalizer
I find it ironic that some fans of the books cannot come to terms with the changes that Peter Jackson has made to their beloved story. One would think that true "Book Purists" would be more accepting of the changes since the inevitability of change was the overriding theme of JRR Tolkien's story. In Tolkien's Middle-Earth -- like our own world -- nothing ever stays the same, even for immortals.

Sorry for posting two in a row, but I just thought of something.

Tolkien also points out very strongly that change isn't always for the good. I think the Ents are the prime example of that.

[Telcontar]

Simple plan for all the movie haters:

Why don't you just stay home and not waste your money and time by watching ROTK? Your obviously already made up your mind based upon the previous two movies that ROTK will suck.

[Telcontar]

Simple plan for all the movie haters:

Why don't you just stay home and not waste your money and time by watching ROTK? Your obviously already made up your mind based upon the previous two movies that ROTK will suck.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Nurvingiel


Anyway, I think there are only two things that could stop me from having criticisms about the movie.
1) That I didn't love the book
2) That I didn't enjoy the movie.

Except I did love the book. Tolkien created a wonderful image of Middle-earth in my imagination when I was 11. Tolkien is part of my childhood; I was, and am, a big reader, and I have fond memories of reading Lord of the Rings.

I also enjoyed the movie immensely. If I hadn't, I wouldn't bother criticising it because I wouldn't care. Jackson had a lot to go up against, Middle-earth already existed in my mind and he had to show it on screen. It would have been easier to start from scratch.

I liked the movie a lot, but I felt it could have been better. There were a few comprimises I could have done without. It's really just impossible for the movie to compete with Tolkien's Middle-earth that exists in my mind.

Well put, with lots of diplomacy. Something I'm not good at when it comes to something I love deeply, like JRRT's beautiful works.

[Chipalote]

I'm not going to say exactly what I think for fear of getting my head bit off, but can't we all just state our opinions w/o getting into stupid fights? my gosh, y'all are acting like little kids. Just coz someone thinks different then you doesn't mean you have to be biased against them.



Chipalote

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ruinel:

I am an Elf with no self control. Beware.

Chip:

In all sincerity, there isn't much "bias" going on. Almost all of it comes from BB; a little from JD, and probably a little from me, as well. But I have complete respect for many, many people who feel the movies perfectly captured Tolkien's vision: Dunedain, for example, and a few others who haven't posted for a while. It is when one stoops to constant mudslinging, insulting of intelligence, etc. as BB has that I lose my respect.

[Chipalote]

Sorry guys, I was on the first page when I typed my post- that was when I saw the most arguing going on. My mistake-

Chipalote