Feminism

[HOBBIT]

I am usually chivalrous,but there really is no point anymore, is there?

Many girls in this topic have siad they liked it - but why should they be treated that way anymore??

Opening doors for them, getting them presents and gifts all the time, a majority of the time paying for all the dates - think about it girls that a lot of money to blow on an ex!


Its not appreciated anymore.

Some girls want it - others don't. And you don't know which.

And some girls just expect to be treated well just because they may be beautiful girls.

I think this should STOP though. When this was in its prime, with 'gentlemen' women did not have as many rights - that was fine then.

Now that women can vote and are in corporations, etc there really should be equality.

Equality - that means that women can open the doors for their guy friends occasionally and split the tab. And who cares about where you walk on a sidewalk?

Women should NOT EXPECT PRIVLIDGES AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT EQUALITY - SO HYPOCRITICAL.

[Mercutio]

I love it when guys hold doors open (not just pass it off to you). I was walking with a friend in our small school to the comp lab and back to see if a list was posted on the web and he held every door open! How chivalrous.

[afro-elf]

Women should NOT EXPECT PRIVLIDGES AND THEN COMPLAIN ABOUT EQUALITY - SO HYPOCRITICAL.

Interesting response hairy footed one.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Mercutio
I love it when guys hold doors open (not just pass it off to you). I was walking with a friend in our small school to the comp lab and back to see if a list was posted on the web and he held every door open! How chivalrous.

Well in a way I agree with Hobbit - but I will hold the door for ANYONE I am with - whether they are male or female. I just think that whoever reaches the door first should hold it open for the people they are with.

I think that we should work on equality. if women want to be equals - then they should eb equals - and that means, when they ask a guy out on a date - they pay and so forth. Feminism should be about equality - not male bashing or having your cake and eating it too, or even women telling other women what is acceptable (such as you shouldn't be sexy, etc)/

[Hemel]

Hemel cheers JD

Remembering also - which I truly believe - there are differences between males and females ..

For Dunedan, I agree. I've done a lot of work in this area, over gender inequality in divorce and domestic situations.

For Mercutio - an interesting observation.

My comments ...

Feminism is one thing, feminazism or matriarchy is something entirely different. I think the idea of feminism has got badly subverted in some places.

What interests me are the critiques that feminism can bring even to our very basic (usually dichotomous) ways of thinking. I happen to think it's a shame that feminism has been dragged down, because it has a lot of positive things going with it as well.

And yes, I'm someone who thinks that using 'he' when we mean more than one gender is not on. I use 'ey, em, eir' btw. Here's a link. http://www.theorem.ca/~mvcorks/meaning_language.html

[Snowdog]

Feminism is one thing, feminazism or matriarchy is something entirely different. I think the idea of feminism has got badly subverted in some places.

That is the truth. Women at work like to be comlimented on their looks, but in today's enviroment, what guy wants to take the chance???

[Nurvingiel]

Nice bump whoever did it. I will now jump in at random.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Well in a way I agree with Hobbit - but I will hold the door for ANYONE I am with - whether they are male or female. I just think that whoever reaches the door first should hold it open for the people they are with.

I think that we should work on equality. if women want to be equals - then they should eb equals - and that means, when they ask a guy out on a date - they pay and so forth. Feminism should be about equality - not male bashing or having your cake and eating it too, or even women telling other women what is acceptable (such as you shouldn't be sexy, etc)/

The door thing is a good example. I also hold the door for people I'm with because it's polite and a nice thing to do. I'll also hold the door for a total stranger if they are close enough behind me. I don't care in any situation (except for Scandinavian saunas and change rooms) what gender people are.
For sports teams, my opinion is having a boys team and a girls team is a great way to get twice the number of players out. If there is only one team, then it's just the team, for both boys and girls. Before there was a girls rugby team at my old high school, two girls played on the team, which was otherwise all boys. When the girls team was started, they then played for the girls team, and the other team (which had been mostly boys) became all boys. At our neighbour high school which had only a girls team, I hope that a boy who wanted to play rugby would play on that team. I think it's wrong to say to a guy that he can't play on a team that is so far only girls, if it's the only team. I think it stinks.

I think feminism started because it was necessary for women to fight for their rights. Now in North America and Western Europe, rights are largely equal, and feminism has taken on a smaller and different role.

In a lot of countries, we still need feminism in its original form - to bring rights to oppressed women.

[Elfhelm]

Yeah, Snowdog seems to be bumping a bunch of old threads up to the top.

My opinion? Don't mistake feminism for women's rights. Many women want equal rights, but they feel the feminist movement has been hijacked by extremists. My wife in particular hates it when every great poet who happens to be female is analyzed from a feminist perspective. Nobody ever analyzes Byron from a chauvinist perspective, but it could be done.

I strongly believe in equal rigths for all people. But if the feminist movement is alienating people, it needs to be changed. Of course, minor discomfort resulting from being forced out of one's Lazyboy doesn't qualify as serious alienation (though most BarcaLoungers would disagree.)

[Nurvingiel]

For a second I thought you mean forced out of Lazyboy (band) concert.

Maybe what I was speaking of was in fact women's rights. I'm not a feminist anyway - I'm for women's rights, not the superiority of women. Chauvanism is equally wrong.

I'm an egalitarist!

[Hasty Ent]

It is sad how the feminist movement has allowed itself to get hijacked and misrepresented. Granted, there are a few extemists -- but isn't that the case with every group? The fact remains that with all the good that has been done there is still a long way to go. Ultimately, change needs to happen within.

Here's an example of something that horrified me the other day, and no, I don't think I'm over-reacting. It's an example of how subtle discrimination can be, and how it can affect one's perception of a group.

I work in an art gallery and see tons of announcements for exhibits. A friend drops one off the other day and as I look at the back I see this text (edited for privacy): __________ is a book showcasing the works of six women artists chosen by ______________.

Now..... why were they compelled to say "women" artists? I have never received a card that said "group show of 5 male artists." However, it's not uncommon to receive announcement stating "women" or "female" as a descriptor before photographer, printmaker, painter, sculptor, etc. The book in question has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with gender.

So why use "women" as a descriptor? Because they are special? They shouldn't be subject to the same aesthetic standards? It's just one example of how society needs to change its way of thinking. I pointed out the phrasing to the artist and her husband when they dropped the card off. It didn't occur to him that there was anything wrong with the language until I pointed it out to him.

[HOBBIT]

Well, my school finally has a woman Principal, and a woman super-intendant, and deputy super-intendant.

They all schemed together and declared that all students at graduation will wear green robes, showing that everyone is equal.

Traditionally, men wore green and women gold - our school colors. This created a nice effect. And a nice harmless tradition that went on for 25+ years. I think that many High Schools have men wear 1 school color and the women the other.

The women in charge think that women having to wear a different color than men is sexist. I don't see how. All the seniors that I have talked to are against this change and want the men wearing green and the women wearing gold - including all the girls that I have spoken with.

Oh well.

[Nurvingiel]

They could have just alternated green and gold instead of basing it on gender. Then it wouldn't be sexist, and you'd still have a nice effect. Stan Abercrombie could wear green, and Mark Ashton could wear gold, then Elizabeth Brahms would wear green etc.
edit: Or the things that go around your neck could be gold, over the green robes.

While I consider myself an egalitarian rather than a feminist, I appreciate what feminists of the recent past have done for women's rights. Also, there is still a great need in the world for people to fight for women's rights. We can't let the annoying distractions in Western society distract us from the great need for fundamental human rights for women in other countries.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

The women in charge think that women having to wear a different color than men is sexist.

Then don't do that!!!!!!


Instead, have the MEN wear a different color than the WOMEN!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by HOBBIT

They all schemed together and declared that all students at graduation will wear green robes, showing that everyone is equal.

Maybe they just hated the gold colour.

Considering we neither have actual school colours or robes for graduation (The only one in robes at a graduation at a university here are the professors. ) the whole things seems a bit odd to me. I suppose as long as the students wearing the robes never had any problem with the colour devision, it didn't need to be changed. Both gold and green were equal school colours too, weren't they? Poor gold, being so cruelly oppressed.

It reminds me somewhat of my high school. We had to wear a uniform there, a skirt for the summer and spring months and in winter we could wear trousers. When boys had to be allowed in the school (before that, it was strictly only girls), no one ever said they had to wear skirts too. And the boys certainly didn't ask for that sort of equality.

[Insidious Rex]

Well according to Spocks ACLU blurb they certainly have.

[brownjenkins]

when i graduated HS we all wore green... everyone had always wore green... no one had an issue... some things in life only are issues if you choose to make them such

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Then don't do that!!!!!!


Instead, have the MEN wear a different color than the WOMEN!

Hee.
I don't see why robe colour should be based on gender at all though. I think we base too much on gender in our society, to the detriment of both men and women.
(At my grad we all wore green robes with a white neck thing because those are our school colours.)

[Bombadillo]

Maybe if the senior class were to object in a nice and organized fashion, the feminists would see reason. If they don't then they're dumb, and parents should complain.

My own school is nice, but feminism makes up about half of the literature requirements. As if it wasn't difficult enough to get a sophomore boy interested in a book, they made him read "The Secret Life of Bees" this year, "a book that mothers will pass on to their daughters and cherish for generations." (back cover)

[Lotesse]

That whole thing about the boy getting the ACLU to help him sue to wear a skirt in school or whatever, that kid just wants to make a point in order to make a point. About the fact that he lives in the United States where people can do stuff like sue for their right to wear skirts in lieu of pants - Great! Good on him; rock on or whatever! And the thing about having to wear a different colour graduation robe according to sex, yeah, that irritated me too in my own high school graduation, and I still think it's ridiculous - why can't the grad gown be the same exact thing for all human beings being graduated?? Be they boy, girl, whatever. But what really DOES get my goat, just like what Hasty Ent mentions above a few posts - it's the thing where people's accomplishments and professions get tagged and described if the accomplisher or professional happens to be a woman. That always DID bug me, as far back as I can remember. An artist is an artist, a writer is a writer, a CEO is a CEO, a cop is a cop, a seacaptain is a seacaptain, right? But because it has taken us women so many THOUSANDS of years to get our own recognised, equal place in the power-structure of this world and amongst our male peers, it often kind of NEEDS to be stated, so "the Big Boys" can RECOGNISE and show a little professional respect.

I ramble - ah well. It always bugged me too, though, Hasty Ent - She's not a "woman writer," or a "woman president," she's a writer, and/or she's a president. Period.

[HOBBIT]

That boy was indeed making a point. He didn't want to wear skirts - he wanted to wear shorts. His school BANNED wearing shorts from October through Winter. But skirts were allowed. That policy was highly in favor of females. They could wear skirts year round but guys couldn't wear shorts year-round?

Especially since guy shorts are extremely long and the only problems with shorts is the girls wearing short-shorts. He was rightfully challenging a stupid policy.
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on graduation -
Lotesse - why did having to wear a different color offend you? I just don't understand. It is a harmless tradition probably found at a lot of High Schools. Men and Women ARE different - and one color is no better or worse or more masculine or feminine than any other (except perhaps for pink and purple ).

Guys wear Suits or Tuxes to parties and functions and Women wear Dresses, Blouses, Skirts. Is that sexist? Schools that have uniforms often have girls in skirts and guys in ties. Should everyone just wear the same thing?

We have 2 school colors just like there are 2 different sexes. Separate but equal colors - just like the 2 genders.

There have been some petitions going around, but nothing serious. No one really cares what students think anyway. There has been no general official announcement made over the loudspeaker or any handout - but it is being done. You just have to ask the principal.
In that way - they are avoiding parents complaining as I'm sure many would. Keeping it under wraps.

School pictures taken over the summer were taken before the decision was made - so they have the girls wearing gold graduation robes in them. The retakes taken (only taken if you didn't like your picture) several months later had all the girls wearing green robes.

But MANY girls' graduation photos won't match up with what they actually wear at graduation.

Those girls looking to wear siblings' or relatives' golden robes are out of luck. Since no announcement was made for them to make sure that they order green - I predict that there will be dozens of girls showing up to graduation in golden robes.