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09-06-2004, 03:05 AM | #121 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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However, I don't see that as likely in the slightest to ever happen. As I grow older, I've been constantly delighted with how strong the evidence supporting Christianity is. It's only been three years since I came to know Christ personally. At the time when I came to know him, I only went to church because I had to and I hadn't picked up a Bible in probably years of my own will. My faith was at its all time weakest. I had so little faith I didn't dare set a meeting with God for fear he wouldn't show up, and my house of cards (my religion) would collapse. I was completely weak, pathetic and sinful. The only thing I did have was persistence, and that came from the Lord. The persistence was in seeking his way. I didn't even know of the scripture, "seek and you will find." I didn't know I was guaranteed success. The persistence came from God, because he called me. After he found me, the best part of my life started, and continues up to this day. It has been utterly amazing seeing God at work in so many ways. It has become personal. It's not all mystical experience, sensing things without seeing correspondence to reality. Very many of the times, the experience connects with the physical events around me in extremely real ways. Only about two times out of what is probably now at least 200 different experiences have I been led to disbelieve what appeared to be a genuine experience. Quote:
Firstly, many of my experiences are deeply personal. I wouldn't be comfortable with exposing some things to you. (Smiles) Actually, some would cause you to doubt my psychiatric health, if you refused to accept a religious interpretation to events. However, my point is some are very deeply personal. The second problem is that I personally doubt any experience is ever going to convince you. You need to have your own experience. That should convince you. It would require a search of your own for God. I am positive that he would answer that, if you were serious about it. It's possible that even if you weren't serious about it, you'd be changed. God is really remarkable sometimes about reaching to people that weren't even looking for him, and then causing them to do so. Quote:
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Also, we do know some of the details of how prayer works. The more deeply one studies the different concepts brought forth in the scripture, the better an understanding of them one gains. We may not see "spiritual particles" making up different spiritual substances. We can understand better and better God, his nature, his being, what he's like and made of, and more and more about prayer too. I guess this type of knowledge is different from what you mean, though. Rather like reading a manual, I can understand how the microwave works. That manual doesn't show how all the nuts and bolts connect, and the electricity flows, and all of that. That's the difference.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-06-2004, 11:43 AM | #122 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Will answer more later - in-laws still visiting ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-06-2004, 09:14 PM | #123 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-06-2004, 09:25 PM | #124 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-06-2004, 09:31 PM | #125 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-06-2004, 10:24 PM | #126 | ||||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-07-2004, 05:14 AM | #127 | ||
Elven Warrior
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09-08-2004, 01:29 PM | #128 | |||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-08-2004, 05:21 PM | #129 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-08-2004, 05:47 PM | #130 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Well, I'm aware of MORE, and I need to deal with what I am aware of. And again, your explanation is too simple for what I'm aware of, so I can't use it. But if it fits what YOU are aware of, then by all means, take it Quote:
Seriously, I was just wondering about your thoughts on this. It seems to me that the majority of people, when they love someone, are not just consumed with the thought "I'm gonna get to pass on my genes!" (at least on a conscious level). So I was wondering if you were suggesting that it was at a subconscious level and people were just not aware of it, and only a few people, like you, were aware of what was really going on. Quote:
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Really, this is the perfect example of what can be seen in a lab and what CAN'T be seen in a lab, and how the fact that some things can't be seen in a lab doesn't mean that they aren't there and we don't experience them. "Mating" can be seen in a lab; what's inside people's hearts and minds can't. But that doesn't mean it's not there. I'm married, and engage in the behavior you call "mating" with my husband. And I know that passing on our genes is about the last thing on our minds - we love each other, both in feelings and in action. He's held my hand thru 3 childbirths. We've been there for each other for the 3 surgeries of our middle son (another one coming up this year...). We've supported each other thru the tough times and rejoiced together in the fun times. When I see him I am glad, for he is an honorable, fun, intelligent, sensitive, manly MAN (he has such a wonderful laugh!), and we are committed to each other thru thick and thin. Choosing to only pay attention to the incredibly SMALL subset of things in our relationship that can be observed in labs makes me throw out too many other things that I constantly observe, and therefore is wholly inadequate for me.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 09-08-2004 at 05:58 PM. |
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09-08-2004, 11:01 PM | #131 | |||
Quasi Evil
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Jared Diamond wrote an interesting and thorough examination of the nature of the human animal in his book The Third Chimpanzee. It’s a good read. I think youd find the chapter on How We Pick Our Mates and Sex Partners quite interesting… Matt Ridley’s Genome is quality stuff too. He actually uses data from the human genome project to break down specific genes and show us how they play out in real life in the human being. This might help you see that genes in fact impact directly on some really quite complex behavior. He also wrote a book called Nature Via Nurture: Genes, Experience and What Makes Us Human which somewhat bucks the trend in some corners of scientific thought in proposing just how our genes and our environment engage in a kind of complex dance that determines our behavior. He points out that “genes not only predetermine the broad structure of the brain, they also absorb formative experiences, react to social cues, and even run memory. They are consequences as well as causes of the will.” Maybe even check out his book called The Agile Gene : How Nature Turns on Nurture. Although a chunk of that is covered in Nature Via Nurture. But one of my favorite science authors is Desmond Morris. Read The Naked Ape. Its not the most thrilling book but he pretty much breaks down every complex human behavior to its biological fundamentals. Sex, rearing, exploration, fighting, feeding, comfort, you name it its all covered in there. Some interesting and sometimes controversial stuff. Sometimes a little over the top but very much worth taking in. You may also want to check out Morris’s The Human Zoo which talks more about how high density of humans (in crowded cities for example) fundamentally and universally change human behavior. Really interesting stuff. It really makes you realize just how much we are truly animals. I think you will especially like the sex and super-sex chapter. Speaking of that subject, other books I would recommend are: The Red Queen : Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature by Matt Ridley and The Origins of Virtue: Human Instincts and the Evolution of Cooperation by Ridley as well. The Mating Mind: How Sexual Choice Shaped the Evolution of Human Nature by Geoffrey Miller. The Birth of the Mind: How a Tiny Number of Genes Creates the Complexities of Human Thought by Gary Marcus. And well Ill stop there before I get out of control. Let me know when yer done with those. I have plenty more. The good thing about all those is that you don’t have to be some kind of lab coat to understand them. They do a great job of writing in a way that’s comprehendible by laymen. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-08-2004, 11:40 PM | #132 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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"Ive read and heard enough creationist double talk to realize that its about religion. Not about science."
I agree. True. |
09-09-2004, 12:15 AM | #133 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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It's no slur to say parts of the theory of evolution are faith-based! It's just mere fact. You're saying basically (correct me if I"m wrong) that you aren't satisfied that a soul exists because you can't measure it in a lab. Well, why do you believe the parts of the theory of evolution that can't be measured in a lab? Sounds like a faith-based belief to me and this is fine - if you can't measure things in a lab, then you gotta go on the indirect indicators that you DO have to make decisions about things. The important parts of evolution are very much faith-based. Lizra, do you buy all this stuff about how the driving force behind every human behavior is basically to reproduce their genes?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-09-2004, 01:06 AM | #134 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
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Our bodies are certainly the driving force behind our life, and genes are the building blocks of our bodies, but your statement is too oversimplified sounding to have much value...IMO.
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09-11-2004, 05:26 PM | #135 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Sorry, don't have time now or mental stamina enough to respond to everything. Just a few things in particular I'll respond to now.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-11-2004, 07:19 PM | #136 | |
Quasi Evil
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ok so what trap did i walk into by answering that anyway?
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-11-2004, 07:26 PM | #137 | ||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-11-2004, 07:47 PM | #138 | |||||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-12-2004, 01:17 AM | #139 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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There's no trap here. I was commenting on Lief's post saying that I would say that God allows evil, by pointing out that several types of people can "allow" evil, and MOTIVE is the difference, and your answer to Lief's post was critical of God's motive, and I had an explanation for it. That's all But unfortunately, I have more in-laws coming in tomorrow, and school started this week, and I won't be able to post until mid next week SO have fun guys! See you in a bit
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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09-12-2004, 01:36 AM | #140 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
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It's only according to your worldview that there's a problem with people assuming their religion's complete accuracy. Oh well, you've a right to that worldview. Quote:
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Let's say you were down by Loch Ness and saw a plesiosaur climb out of the loch onto the sand, roll over a few times and then swim away. I didn't see it. I said, "It was probably just a large seal." You said, "no, I saw it! It was a plesiosaur!" I answer, "probably a trick of the light." Our viewpoints are not equally valid, here. I did not see this, therefore what I say, though not to be discounted right off the bat by everyone, is less valid an opinion. Quote:
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But he's not going to throw fireworks for someone that just wants a show. You have to be serious about asking. You need to be willing to dedicate your life to following him, if he does reveal himself for who he is. One neat thing is that you don't even have to address your initial prayer to Jesus. If I were you, I'd just ask the true God to reveal himself. That way you would hear from whichever religion is true. Make the prayer even broader if you like, to potentially include polytheistic religions. The important thing is that you need to be willing to follow God, if he is real. To turn your life over to him. If he proves himself, will you prove yourself, is basically what it amounts to. Quote:
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I think it can take faith just to ask God to reveal himself. I asked, and I wasn't in the least confident he would or could respond.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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