The worst change in FOTR

[fedos]

Is Glamdring supposed to glow in the presence of orcs?

[Kevin McIntyre]

Orald I doubt it six hours but there will be extended footage. I just hope it can be played in sequence and not as just cut scenes like on the new Godfather DVD's.


Glamdring should glow, they changed this.. probably to highlight Sting more.

[Captain Stern]

I never said that Maedhros was slain on the slopes of Thangorodrim, it said that he was "AS one returned from the dead".

[Kevin McIntyre]

Originally posted by Captain Stern
I never said that Maedhros was slain on the slopes of Thangorodrim, it said that he was "AS one returned from the dead".

Where is this reference?

[orald]

You are probably right Kevin Mcintyre,most dvd's are formated so that deleted scenes are by themselves,and not in sequence with the movie.but the logistics is there,I have two dvds,that have many hours of extras."The Grinch who stole Christmas",has 20 hrs of assorted features,not all are film,some are games,and doesn't take up as much disc space.But to think "The butcher of Baggins" would have the foresight,to do this makes me doubt it's truth ,J/K.
__________________________________________________ __

I never said that Maedhros was slain on the slopes of Thangorodrim, it said that he was "AS one returned from the dead".
__________________________________________________ __
Didn't Maedhros,off himself by jumping in a fiery chasm,with one of the Silmarils?

[Kevin McIntyre]

thats how he eventually died later on. Stern and I are talking about his suffering on Thangordrim. He made a reference from the text and i can't find it, so i was asking him to provide it.

[Captain Stern]

I've been looking for ages and I still can't find it. Honestly though it's there. When I find it I'll post it.

I'll try looking for it now while I have nothing better to do.


I don't supose anyone else remembers where the passage is?

[Kevin McIntyre]

don't go crazy over it. Is it in the Silmarillion, if so I will find it in the electronic version. If its in the HoME then well I won't look too hard.

[Captain Stern]

It's in the Silmarillion.

This kind of thing eats away at me

[Kevin McIntyre]

I searched the sil and the quote "returned from the dead" appears once in reference to Beren. of course I would need an exact quote to find it.

in "Of the Return of The Noldor" it says


There Maedhros in time was healed; for the fire of life was hot within him, and his strength was of the ancient world, such as those possessed who were nurtured in Valinor. His body recovered from his torment and became hale, but the shadow of his pain was in his heart; and he lived to wield his sword with left hand more deadly than his right had been. By this deed Fingon won great renown, and all the Noldor praised him; and the hatred between the houses of Fingolfin and Fëanor was assuaged. For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertion in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: 'If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwë, and not the least wise.' But to this his brothers did not all in their hearts agree.

[Captain Stern]

I've come accross that passage too, more than once. It's further along in the book, maybe near the Nirnaeth Androediad.

I'm begining to doubt myself now

[bropous]

Ah, but jerseydevil, Glamdring, the Foe-Hammer, in the books did not glow blue, as did Sting, but glowed white. One can discern a SLIGHT glow coming from Gandalf's blade, especially when facing the demon of Morgoth, the Balrog.

[liza disavino]

In reply to Bropus's<<<I agree that part of the charm of the books is the fact everything unfolds from the point of view of the innocent hobbits. However, I think Mr Jackson did an incredible job laying the foundations of the Ring itself. Don't forget that there are copious forewards before Tolkien begins to tell the story, and that without this background, the threat of the Enemy and the power of the One Ring are not fully fleshed out.>>> Well, not exactly. if you look at your Tolkein, you will find that the "copious forwards" consist of 3 1/2 pages of "when I wrote this" by Tolkein, and then one copious forward that deals with hobbits, hobbits, and only hobbits, (what they look like, how they dress, how many meals they eat every day, etc.) which helps to center you in the hobbit mindset and the hobbit world. All of the information on the ring comes later in the book, at the Frodo/Gandalf discusssion and at the Council of Elrond. I stand by my earlier statement - throwing all that grand history and the sweeping battle scenes at the audience at the beginning of the film ruins the sense of seeing the story from the perspective of the hobbits, as Tolkein intended. (It could easily have been done later in flashbacks, at the council of Elrond.) The power of Tolkein's method of storytelling is that it starts small, giving us a place to hook into the main characters, and the danger and darkness grow gradually right on upto the ending horror of Mt. Doom and the final battle. Starting with footage of the Last Alliance is like blowing the punchline of a joke: okay, now we know what this will all lead to in the end, so now why bother watching all three films?

[bropous]

Correct about the forewards, sheesh, I should have indicated the appendices. Good call, lisa.

However, I do not see how including the battle scenes of the Last Alliance of Elves and Men "blows the punch line". Could you please elaborate? How does the including of this battle 2560 years prior to the story indicate how the story will end? If anything, it indicates to me that Sauron may be defeated for a while, but not toally, nor completely destroyed. I loved the battle scenes and think they were perfect in laying the premise for the power of both Sauron and the One Ring.

[orald]

I see your point Liza Disavino,it could also have the same numbing affect,that "Saving Private Ryan" had.The forty minute beach landing,in a visual way,stunned most audience members,to a point that was hard to recover,through out the rest of the movie.Watching that movie for the second time,and not shell shocked,made me appreciate the entire movie,front to back.But im not sure if P. Jackson could afford to gamble on today's moviegoers,sitting thru the first forty five minutes without any action.But you are right ,the reader of the books doesn't get told much upfront(about the past),until the council of Elrond.I wish P.Jackson had the nerve to make the "Hobbit"first,since it was written in a different mannerism(not as foreboding),it would have done decent at the box office,then bring out the trilogy,and really wow'em.It would have better prepared the trilogy viewers,for the storyline,and only taken another year,and been a hoot to watch.Most people didn't read the Silmarillion,or about the first,and second age until after they read LOTR.I enjoyed watching the beginning,but You do have to wonder why he made reference to the Isildur lopping off Sauron's fingers,and recovering the ring three seperate times?I think it was more of the dumbing down process.And for some like me,in that area,i've already givin till it hurts.

[Billadillo]

Noldo:

Originally posted by noldo

- Arwen "weakened" Aragorn's character only by the fact that she was a supreme being, an immortal, an elf. Remember when the Fellowship entered Lórien? Suddenly they're surrounded by an army of Elves. For no human, not even Aragorn raised by Elves could match them in the skills of hiding, sneaking... etc.

[/B]

Well, first off, Arwen is a half-elf, not a full elf...and certainly not a supreme being. Not that it makes any difference as to her "stealth abilities". The point isn't whether or not she was technically capable of sneaking up on him. The point I am making is that it takes something away from Aragorn to have her do it.

Originally posted by noldo

- Arwen "weakened" Elrond's character only by the fact that she called out to him to flood the Ford. Elves couldn't do magic just like that, but they could communicate without speech and from far distances (take Galadriel of the films as another example). And Arwen called out to Elrond and it was Elrond who governed the ring of Vilya and made the flood at Bruinen.

[/B]

While I admit, what you say is possible...you have to admit it's a bit of a stretch. I certainly don't think that's what PJ & Co. intended to portray anyhow. Imangine for a moment you don't know the whole story...what do you see in that scene? Arwen does chant...water starts to rise. Therefore Arwen causes water to rise.

And really, arguing about elves ability to move silently, or their version of "telepathy" is pointless. Yes, I have read the Silmarillion, and I'm aware of how awesome elves were in the 1st Age. But that isn't what this story is about. I still stand by my earlier comments that these changes take away from the main characters of THIS story.

And there are still more points in support of this:

- Aragorn saved Frodo's life by administering athelas to him. In the movie, he doesn't even think about it until Frodo is almost gone & Arwen "rides to the rescue." This further weakens his character. Keep in mind, that at this point in the story, he is still Strider, the mysterious ranger. The reader has just learned that he can fight like a devil (at Weathertop), now he shows an intimate knowledge of herblore.

- On the whole Arwen = Xena issue... Arwen is not Xena-like in the fact that she is sword fighting & flip kicking all over the place. However, her defiance at the ford is very much Xena. The "come and get him if you want him" line is just too cliche. Hey, nothing sells like tough, hot chicks with swords... Anyhow, it's ridiculous to think that even "supreme being" Arwen could face the 9 Nazgul together and not soil herself.

Oh well...like I said, still a good movie

[bropous]

Oh, now I would have to disagree that the granddaughter of Galadriel and daughter of Elrond Half-Elven could not "face the 9 Nazgul together and not soil herself" at the Ford. Aside from the hideous mental picture this conjures [thanks, billadillo! LOL!], let's recall that at the time of the Ford of Bruinen the Nine were in no way in full power, in fact, far from it. Heck, even Frodo was able, as a simple hobbit, to resist, for a few moments, the command of the Nine to return across the Ford, and wasn't wearing the One Ring at the time.

Asfaloth was able to stand in the face of their terror, and he was just a horse; Arwen would have been able to resist their orders as well, in my humle Elven Warrior's opinion. Just remember her lineage!

[orald]

Hmmmmmm.......Arwen not a full elf?Wheres the human in the wood pile,on this one?Grandmother-Galadrial.Grandfather-Celeborn.on her mother's side.Mother-Celebrian(Eldarin lady),and Father-Elrond,which had no previous lineage,since he chose to be an Elf,in the first age.maybe your refering to when she gave up her imortality?But that was long after the facing down of the Keystone Nazgul,that were portrayed in the movie,I agree she has a very broadened role,but hey, thats Hollywood.All one has to do,to realize how much P.Jackson changed the story,is take 15-20 minutes,of time and read the chapter"THE BRIDGE OF KHAZAD-DUM"to refresh your memory(it had been several years,since I last read LOTR).And one has to wonder why?It could have been done much better,in the movie,if "The Buthcer of Baggins"had stuck to the actual story line,and would have been shorter.But I guess he had to get in that neat special effects scene,with the Cave-Troll,which in the book,was only stabbed in the foot,then drew back.But it was a good movie.

[Fat middle]

i think that scene with the cave troll was very good and cannot admitt it as innecesary.

i've heard some ppl complaint about the short development of the characters of some members of the Fellowship and i have to disagree: scenes like the fight with the troll are very rich in character development: you see in a very short time what take long pages in the book in dialogues and descriptions. My only complaint about that scene is that the special effects weren't the good they should be.

and about the rest of Moria scenes i found 'em wonderful, excepting perhaps the falling of the stair before the bridge. there, i deem, both special effects and narration failed a bit.

[bropous]

Elrond is "Elrond Half-Elven", orald. His brother, Elros, choose the human "gift" of the "Doom of Mandos", whilst Elrond chose the immortal life of Elves. Arwen, being of his line, was also given the choice to deceide between the Halls of Mandos and the Undying Lands.

I do take exception with the phrase, "human in the woodpile". It is far too close to a phrase far too common in the South for far too long for my comfort. Poor choice of words, orald.

As for the cave-troll scene, as said in a prior post, I felt this was great in demonstrating the awesome strength and power of the Balrog, and why Gandalf feared it so. No one ran from the cave-troll, but they ran like heck from the Balrog. Without the cave-troll scene, those in the audience who'd not read the books would not have understood the incredible level of danger the Fellowship was facing, and why Gandalf alone could stand up to it.

As for the "butcher of Baggins", you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how limited it is. Given your choice of metaphors, I'm not really all that surprised.