10-17-2003, 07:32 PM | #121 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I'm not saying that they only teach hate - but a vast population is being taught by fanatical clerics who believe in the destruction of the west and israel. No matter what actions we take - it will be wrong - unless you want to conform to Islam. No sane person defends Hitler or World War II Germany - but everyone seems willing to defend the Middle East and scream racism when these same things are stated about that part of the world. Hitler had youth camps that indoctrinated chridren into the nazi party - well the fanatical Islamic clerics have the Madrasa's for the same purpose. I see know difference - between Islamic fanatism and Nazi fanatism. I have the Time Magazine article and I will quote some of the passages they quoted from the books that they found being used in the Saudi Arabian schools. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-17-2003 at 07:37 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 07:42 PM | #122 | ||
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 10-17-2003 at 07:45 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 07:44 PM | #123 |
The Black Númenórean
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ahem. "Madrasas" as it is in english, means nothing more than school. however, the term is also used as a cover up or blanket word for terrorists.
And by the by, i think i will withdraw from this thread as i really dont see the value of comming in and posting when itreally doenst matter. and i always come out of it thinking less of fellow mooters.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
10-17-2003, 07:52 PM | #124 | |
Queen of Nargothrond
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10-17-2003, 07:54 PM | #125 | ||
Elf Lord
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Location: Israel
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They are evil. It doesn't mean they were always evil; I think that if they were in a country with better education, like JD said, they wouldn't suicide. You said that they are humans. Well, in my prespective , they don't act humanely. Even if they killed one of your family, wehy do you have to go into a restaurant and kill innocent people, that had nothing to do with your family relative? There are Israelis that all of their family (husband/wife, kids, grandparents) was murdered, but they di not want revenge. They wanted peace - to prevent any more cases like their. Quote:
My mom thought that the best way to prevent any more terror, is to disconnect the autonomy from electricity. I think it's a great idea. Instead of all the bombs and murdered. |
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10-17-2003, 08:00 PM | #126 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
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its not that i didnt expect heat. This is the disscussion i have lived my whole life and i have caught alot of heat for it. And outside the moot things arent so peachy and i dont catch it in verbal only. But if you really want to know what the daily life in my little world was like or you want to get more facts on something, just PM me.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
10-17-2003, 08:01 PM | #127 | ||
Elf Lord
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10-17-2003, 08:03 PM | #128 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Alright then, let me refrase that.
I come out thinking that there is less i can talk about without getting into a flame/political bout with them. I have enough flaming politics and America vs. the world around me in my life that i dont really need it here,
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
10-17-2003, 08:06 PM | #129 | |
Elf Lord
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10-17-2003, 08:10 PM | #130 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Imagine this - Scandanavia is owned by Britain. The UN and Britain then set up Norway for the Norwegians to live - since they were forced to leave their homeland many hundreds of years ago. They also create Sweden for Swedes to live. Now Finland and Denmark and Germany support Sweden and are outraged that Norway exists - so they attack Norway in the name of Sweden. Natually Norway fights back and is losing badly (it's 3 against 1) - but does eventually win. In the process Norway gains some of the land that was initially given to Sweden in the conflict and keeps it as spoils of war. Through the years there is repeated conflict in the region. Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Germany all feel that Norway should not exist and the Norwegians should be eliminated. Sweden creates an organization called the PLO whose sole purpose as a political organization is to carry out terrorist attacks on Norway. One of the first is to kidnap and kill in cold blood your olympic team during the Olympic games in Germany. Eventually Norway manages to make treaties with Denmark, Finland and Germany - but the Swedes refuse. Time goes on - and Norway and Sweden live in a very precarious peace (with basic constant fighting). Many swedes do live and work in Norway and many cross the border into Norway freely - but then suicide bombers start coming over from Sweden to attack Norway. Norway starts setting up road block and check points. (Norwegian settlers do start to move into Sweden which Sweden doesn't like). The terrorist bombings continue to happen. You negotiate - negotiation fall part time after time. Restaurants are being bombed, innocent civilians are being killed in college bombings, bus stops and even during religious ceremonies and Norway goes into Sweden to get the terrorists responsible (who hide among women and children and resential areas). It gets worse and worse and the terrorists keep coming. Finally there is a road map for peace - it seems like things are going smoothly. Sweden gets a PM as required, the bombings stop for a very short time, Norway starts to dismantle checkpoints and settlements. Then in one weekend - three terrorist bombings occur from Sweden. The next week - a bus is blown up as men, women and children are going to school, work, the store and about their daily lives. Now you tell me what you would want YOUR country to do in the face of the terrorist attacks? NOTE: The above is just a simplified account of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Do not criticize because I did not put things in. I kept most of the main complaints that either side has against the other - including the Israeli settlements (which I think are wrong).
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-17-2003 at 08:12 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 08:19 PM | #131 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-17-2003, 08:26 PM | #132 | ||||
Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs
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I am not sure that they did not want revenge, but I'll take your word for it (btw, have you spoken to any of these people?). And I'm not sure you can say "That's the difference between us and the Palestinians.". There are probably many, many Palestinians who want peace, who don't want revenge. But we seldom hear of them, we only hear of those who take revenge. 'Humanly' is a very curious word, because it doesn't describe how people really are, it describes how most people should be. It's human to kill, or else no human would ever have killed. But it's not nice (a little digression there, sorry). I guess that they don't think of themselves as evil, they think of the Israelis as evil and themselves as good guys. Quote:
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I see some of the points you try to make (and some of them are valid), but I think it would be better if you all try to see it from their place as well as your own.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 10-17-2003 at 08:27 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 08:33 PM | #133 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-17-2003 at 08:35 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 08:36 PM | #134 | ||||
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 10-17-2003 at 08:38 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 08:40 PM | #135 | |
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Edit: I'll have to go to bed now (it's getting early ), but, as the present governor of Calefornia once said: I'll be back.
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Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle. Last edited by Falagar : 10-17-2003 at 08:45 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 08:56 PM | #136 |
Queen of Nargothrond
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Nomatter what anybody says Falagar, you're a cool dude.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
10-17-2003, 08:57 PM | #137 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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You know what though what you described is the basically the HUGE feud that went on between two families in West Virginia for generations - the Hatfield and the McCoys. It was all over a pig I believe and they only just decided to stop fighting and killing each other. Quote:
I know from the many reports here - that Jews and palestinians work side by side in the hospitals and Jews save the livees of Palestinians and Palestinians save the lives of Jews. So your comments about the refuge camp aren't completely true and as i said - If the bombings stopped - the region would be in peace. The BOMBINGS MUST STOP for peace to occur. Quote:
If you don't like the version I wrote - then you write the "Swedish" side. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-17-2003 at 09:05 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 09:04 PM | #138 | |||||
Elf Lord
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And you're probably right - but that's just because they want us to stop, not because they don't want our blood to be spilt. Quote:
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I will have to go too. It's 3:00 AM here. |
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10-17-2003, 09:43 PM | #139 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Here is the TIME excerpt from the Sept 15, 2003 issue which I mentioned above...
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-17-2003 at 09:50 PM. |
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10-17-2003, 10:12 PM | #140 | |
Enting
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I fear I am perhaps jumping in quite deep with my first post, but I could not help but read this thread, as I consider myself to be quite a political animal (apologies to Aristotle for borrowing his phrase).
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While I think that the suicide attacks are certainly wrong, and to be condemned by all compassionate human beings on both sides of the issue, these events do not take place in a vacuum. These people, who find their current situation terrible enough that they are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice in what they consider a war for their way of life, are not "evil." To call either side "evil" is to grossly simplify a situation that is complicated beyond imagining, and to attempt to put it into neat little sides of "good" and "evil" when such lables do not fit. What are they, then? Desperate. Frustrated. Caught in a situation that they see as hopeless, and unable to find any way out other than to give their lives to the cause. If they were on "our" side, we might even consider them to be noble, like Nathan Hale, or any of the other martyrs who have lived through history. I am not anti-American. I wept with the rest of the world at the deaths of the Firefighters on September 11th, and celebrated as another living person was pulled out of the rubble. I sat glued to my television for an entire week, wondering why humans would do such terrible things to each other. But I also think it is incredibly naive of Americans to assume that since these people attacked us, they must be "evil." Their actions were evil, that is true. There is no excuse whatsoever for the taking of human life to prove a point. However, had we ever listened before? For decades we have supported Israel over the Muslim countries in the area for strategic and political reasons, alienating most of the Arab world in the process. We have come in and criticized their culture (not that it doesn't deserve it, but we must look at this from their point of view), and attempted to force our moral values down their throats. Christian missionaries have preached at them with their hell and damnation messages targeted to pull them from their Heathen religion to the Truth and Light. We have treated them as inferiors, ignored their pleas for help, and supported their enemies tirelessly since the need for oil from the region began. It is hardly suprising that they would be angered. I wish to state again, this does not validate the actions of Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, or those we would classify as terrorists. Life is sacred, and there are other ways to make a point. But these people are not "evil." They are frightened, frustrated, desperate and brainwashed individuals who believe they can change the world by doing these things. It is sad to me that such passion and dedication can not be channeled into productive instead of destructive avenues. In closing, I beg members of the board not to flame me on my first post. Peace to all, ~Percy Last edited by Percy Weasley : 10-17-2003 at 10:13 PM. |
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