Greatest of the Edain - Page 7

Maedhros · 02-05-2003, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Rather, the choice seems to have boiled down to a character who, if one overlooks most of the salient features, can easily be molded into a sort of computer game avatar, some thing one can live through at a distance, versus a character whose strength includes a disturbingly personal quality that one might be expected to develop in oneself, a quality that humanizes the whole thing – “applicability,” JRRT might have called it – and so takes all the ‘fun’ out of it.

You're right, I mean strenght of spirit has to count for that. And who had the greater might of spirit among men? Húrin Thalion.

snowmane · 02-05-2003, 03:54 PM

here's a question-hos worse- morgoth(melkor) or sauron??

Arien the Maia · 02-05-2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by snowmane
here's a question-hos worse- morgoth(melkor) or sauron??

Melkor is way more horrible and more evil than Sauron! Hurin was pretty strong to endure that!

snowmane · 02-05-2003, 04:24 PM

to me melkor-he was a vala wheras sauron was only a leetle servant maia(not tha maia aint bad like olorin-gandalf)
morgoth got ungoliant,dragons,balrogs and the orcs in da 1st place, sauron only used wat was left ova and stole stuff(da rings and such)

NO CONTEST!!!!!!!!!

though i dont think melkor showed wat he was totally capable of-da gods jumped in there!!

The Lady of Ithilien · 02-05-2003, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
how ya think?

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tolksoc/TolkiensOxford/grave.gif

The image is on the Tolkien's Oxford site and shows the grave of John and Edith Tolkien. The inscription says, per the TO site:

EDITH MARY TOLKIEN
LUTHIEN
1889 - 1971
JOHN RONALD
REUEL TOLKIEN
BEREN
1892 - 1973

With this in mind, I think that moment where Thingol sees Beren as one of the great in Arda is one of those wonderful moments in any author's work where a character and his author come almost face-to-face. Cool.

Tar-Elendil · 02-06-2003, 10:31 PM

yea yea i know about the tombstone thing.. but i remember somewhere him saying he was more similar to faramir if any character

Wayfarer · 02-06-2003, 10:57 PM

The silmarillion says that Sauron was less evil than Morgoth only in that for a long time he followed the will of another.

Falagar · 02-07-2003, 08:46 AM

Sauron was almost just as evil as Morgoth perhaps, but Morgoth had greater powers.

The Lady of Ithilien · 02-08-2003, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tar-Elendil
yea yea i know about the tombstone thing.. but i remember somewhere him saying he was more similar to faramir if any character

Can you remember where? I saw a quote many years ago in which he said that Faramir just sort of walked out of the woods of Ithilien at him while he was writing -- I'd like to re-read that whole thing. Certainly JRRT was very fond of him, once he had appeared, and put something warm and loving of himself into Faramir that we easily respond to.

But Beren was a "planned" character; JRRT did not write a long and structurally complicated "Lay of Leithian" about Faramir, nor have him love the daughter of a Maia and an Elven King and take a Silmaril from the crown of the king of hell itself.

Anyway, "the tombstone thing"? What an inhuman way to refer to somebody's epitaph.

You're getting kind of deep into the machine there, Tar-Elendil.

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 02-08-2003, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
Can you remember where? I saw a quote many years ago in which he said that Faramir just sort of walked out of the woods of Ithilien at him while he was writing -- I'd like to re-read that whole thing. Certainly JRRT was very fond of him, once he had appeared, and put something warm and loving of himself into Faramir that we easily respond to.

But Beren was a "planned" character; JRRT did not write a long and structurally complicated "Lay of Leithian" about Faramir, nor have him love the daughter of a Maia and an Elven King and take a Silmaril from the crown of the king of hell itself.

Anyway, "the tombstone thing"? What an inhuman way to refer to somebody's epitaph. You're getting kind of deep into the machine there, Tar-Elendil.

I remember reading somewhere that Tolkien actually thought of himself as a Hobbit, and compared himself to Bilbo, but it was the devoted love between he and Edith, that placed them to be compared to Beren and Luthien. It is only about their love, not the quest itself.

Artanis · 02-08-2003, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
...it was the devoted love between he and Edith, that placed them to be compared to Beren and Luthien. It is only about their love, not the quest itself.

Agree. And when you know the full history of Beren and Luthien, the inscription on the grave is a very moving statement.

Lady of Ithilien, here is the Faramir stuff, from Letter #66:

Quote:

A new character has come on the scene (I am sure I did not invent him, I did not even want him, though I like him, but there he came walking into the woods of Ithilien): Faramir, the brother of Boromir - and he is holding up the 'catastrophe' by a lot of stuff about the history of Gondor and Rohan (with some very sound reflections no doubt on martial glory and true glory): but if he goes on much more a lot of him will have to be removed to the appendices - where already some fascinating material on the hobbit Tobacco industry and the Languages of the West have gone.

Dúnedain · 02-08-2003, 02:31 PM

Now back on topic

I just finished reading the Sil last night, now into the akallabeth. Now I do see and understand the things that people wrote in regards to Hurin, however I am still not convinced. I think there are many who at least match him in greatness, I mean afterall it was his weakness that led to the initial findings of Gondolin. Plus, you can say that he survived 28 years under Morgoth's torture, but I didn't see it that way. I saw it as Morgoth keeping him alive, plus if he was as great as a few of you said about how he overcame Morgoth, then why was he so blinded by Morgoth's evil when he was released back to Beleriand and showed his anger towards "all of those who had dealings with him". I don't know, I just don't think there is ONE who sticks out as the greatest, I think there are many great one's of the Edain, specifically one who wasn't talked about much, Tuor.

I need to continue this later

Falagar · 02-08-2003, 08:33 PM

Quote:

I think there are many who at least match him in greatness, I mean afterall it was his weakness that led to the initial findings of Gondolin.

Well, Gondolin had never fell if it wasn't for Maeglin either. And I don't think it was his weakness, rather Morgoth's curse...

Maedhros · 02-09-2003, 12:04 AM

Quote:

I just finished reading the Sil last night, now into the akallabeth. Now I do see and understand the things that people wrote in regards to Hurin, however I am still not convinced.

Sheeeeeeeeesh, what does an elf have to do?

Quote:

I think there are many who at least match him in greatness, I mean afterall it was his weakness that led to the initial findings of Gondolin. Plus, you can say that he survived 28 years under Morgoth's torture, but I didn't see it that way. I saw it as Morgoth keeping him alive, plus if he was as great as a few of you said about how he overcame Morgoth, then why was he so blinded by Morgoth's evil when he was released back to Beleriand and showed his anger towards "all of those who had dealings with him".

Maeglin is the one that gave the location of Gondolin. You didn't see it that way? A lesser man would have succombed to Morgoth. The thing that you don't see is that Húrin had no hope of escape, no hope of rescue. He could have gave up, he could have joined with Morgoth's forces, but despite being helpless and hopeless he didn't give in to him. Morgoth had to trick him, and unfortunately for being 28 in Angband, he was altered in a bad way. Tuor definitely would have not endured that.

Quote:

I don't know, I just don't think there is ONE who sticks out as the greatest, I think there are many great one's of the Edain, specifically one who wasn't talked about much, Tuor.

Tuor is a joke. Let's see, Tuor married an elf princess, lived in Valinorë, and was guided by an Ainur in ME.
If you compare it to being held in Angband for over 28 years under Morgoth, damn he lived in paradise. An almost perfect life. And when there was a threat of a balrog, there was Echtelion and Glorfindel to take them away.
And it was for Húrin that Turgon could escape to Gondolin again.

Dúnedain · 02-09-2003, 12:09 AM

I am aware of all of that, however IN MY OPINION I just didn't think Hurin was the greatest. I liked him and felt his deeds were great, however, I just felt that there were many characters that each held greatness in their own respect, and I didn't think there was one who took the sole title of greatest...

Maedhros · 02-09-2003, 12:11 AM

But certainly Tuor is not in the same league with the Steadfast. What was Tuor great deed?

Artanis · 02-09-2003, 04:57 AM

Don't call Tour a joke, Maedhros.

He was chosen by Ulmo. If that doesn't account for his valour, I don't know what would.

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-09-2003, 07:59 AM

Also, I wouldn't call Tuor a joke to his face. The man was 8 foot plus!

Artanis · 02-09-2003, 08:28 AM

You know Inderjit Sanghera, an Elf like Maedhros would probably not care about that.

Inderjit Sanghera · 02-09-2003, 10:13 AM

I suppose. I mean he wasn't named well-shaped one (Maitimo-the Quenya mothername of Maedhros) for no good reason. For any of you ladies out there-Madhros was quite the catch.

02-05-2003, 03:54 PM	#122
snowmane Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 23	here's a question-hos worse- morgoth(melkor) or sauron?? __________________ faithful servant yet master's bane, lighfoot's foal, swift snowmane..

02-05-2003, 04:24 PM	#124
snowmane Hobbit Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 23	to me melkor-he was a vala wheras sauron was only a leetle servant maia(not tha maia aint bad like olorin-gandalf) morgoth got ungoliant,dragons,balrogs and the orcs in da 1st place, sauron only used wat was left ova and stole stuff(da rings and such) NO CONTEST!!!!!!!!! though i dont think melkor showed wat he was totally capable of-da gods jumped in there!! __________________ faithful servant yet master's bane, lighfoot's foal, swift snowmane..

02-06-2003, 10:31 PM	#126
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	yea yea i know about the tombstone thing.. but i remember somewhere him saying he was more similar to faramir if any character __________________ Why can we not be sober..

02-06-2003, 10:57 PM	#127
Wayfarer The Insufferable Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 3,333	RE: Melkor or Sauron? The silmarillion says that Sauron was less evil than Morgoth only in that for a long time he followed the will of another. __________________ Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned

02-07-2003, 08:46 AM	#128
Falagar Death of Mooters and [Entmoot] Internal Affairs Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Oslo, Norway Posts: 2,870	Re: Melkor or Sauron? Sauron was almost just as evil as Morgoth perhaps, but Morgoth had greater powers. __________________ Fëanor - Innocence incarnated Still, Aikanáro 'till the Last battle.

02-08-2003, 02:31 PM	#132
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	Now back on topic I just finished reading the Sil last night, now into the akallabeth. Now I do see and understand the things that people wrote in regards to Hurin, however I am still not convinced. I think there are many who at least match him in greatness, I mean afterall it was his weakness that led to the initial findings of Gondolin. Plus, you can say that he survived 28 years under Morgoth's torture, but I didn't see it that way. I saw it as Morgoth keeping him alive, plus if he was as great as a few of you said about how he overcame Morgoth, then why was he so blinded by Morgoth's evil when he was released back to Beleriand and showed his anger towards "all of those who had dealings with him". I don't know, I just don't think there is ONE who sticks out as the greatest, I think there are many great one's of the Edain, specifically one who wasn't talked about much, Tuor. I need to continue this later __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

02-09-2003, 12:09 AM	#135
Dúnedain High King of Númenórë Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Númenórë <--United States of America Posts: 1,947	I am aware of all of that, however IN MY OPINION I just didn't think Hurin was the greatest. I liked him and felt his deeds were great, however, I just felt that there were many characters that each held greatness in their own respect, and I didn't think there was one who took the sole title of greatest... __________________ 'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen

02-09-2003, 12:11 AM	#136
Maedhros The Tall Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Formenos Posts: 578	But certainly Tuor is not in the same league with the Steadfast. What was Tuor great deed? __________________ “What does the term american refers to” asked the boy, and the wise man answered: “Lets look at the dictionary then.” As an adjective American is: 1. Of or relating to the United States of America or its people, language, or culture. 2. Of or relating to North or South America, the West Indies, or the Western Hemisphere. As a noun American is: A native or inhabitant of America. A citizen of the United States. Then the boy asked, “What is America then?”, and the wise man looked at the dictionary again: 1. The United States. 2. also the A·mer·i·cas. The landmasses and islands of North America, Central America, and South America. Confused, the boy asked, “Does the term american refers solely to a us citizen or to any person in North, Central or South America?” The wise man replied: “What do you think?”, and the boy answered: “It is clear to me that while the term american is used to refers to us citizens, one can also use it to refer to any person who is from that continent too,” the boy thought for a while and asked the wise man, “Am I right?”, and he replied: “But of course.” The boy wondered, why is it that some people refuse to acknowledge the fact that the term american refers not only to US citizens but to anyone of the American continent?, but then sadly, the boy understood, that it is the calamity of ignorance.

02-09-2003, 04:57 AM	#137
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	Don't call Tour a joke, Maedhros. He was chosen by Ulmo. If that doesn't account for his valour, I don't know what would. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

02-09-2003, 07:59 AM	#138
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	Also, I wouldn't call Tuor a joke to his face. The man was 8 foot plus!

02-09-2003, 08:28 AM	#139
Artanis Greatest Elven woman of Aman Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Having way too much fun with Fëanor's 7 Posts: 4,285	You know Inderjit Sanghera, an Elf like Maedhros would probably not care about that. __________________ --Life is hard, and then we die.

02-09-2003, 10:13 AM	#140
Inderjit Sanghera Elven Warrior Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Wolverhampton, England. Posts: 260	I suppose. I mean he wasn't named well-shaped one (Maitimo-the Quenya mothername of Maedhros) for no good reason. For any of you ladies out there-Madhros was quite the catch.

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