Blame Fëanor

[trolls' bane]

Why keep blaming Feanor? Why don't we also blame Isildur ?

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

because if it wasn't for feanor, isuldur would not even exist

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Last Child of Ungoliant

because if it wasn't for feanor, isuldur would not even exist

True... I guess it is easy to blame him. But I remember reading something that led me to beleive that it was npt all his fault.

[Embladyne]

EL brings up the sticky point of whether Feanor or his sons were to blame for their actions. I tend to agree that the sons weren't, to some degree....and that the oath was too great of a burden for them to shake off. And that to me, is the most despicable of Feanor's deeds. To force his family to commit the crimes they did, and all for the sake of the Silmarils. To connect this to another idea that Mair and other beings trained by Aule often seem to become corrupt...from them becoming too prideful and invested in their creations...the sheer pride that caused Feanor to put his posessiong of the Silmarils above the well being of his family, and the rest of the Noldor...and the peoples of ME in ever greater circles.
I just cannot forgive him for that.
And what were his sons supposed to do? It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

[Elemmírë]

It was a geas.

What choice did they have?

You can't just break free from one of those.

And don't forget that several of them tried.

[edited] Not arguing against you, Em. Of course.

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Elemmire

It was a geas.

What choice did they have?

You can't just break free from one of those.

And don't forget that several of them tried.

[edited] Not arguing against you, Em. Of course.

I realize that they had no choice...but if they did, I don't think they would have been free to choose any differently. Although it makes me sad the way the twins died, at the same time, I am thankful that they managed to get out of the mess earlier on.
Yeah, not arguing with you, either.

[Willow Oran]

Whoa, wait a minute, don't you think this is just a bit unfair? To say that everything wrong in Middle Earth is the fault of this one, single elf who in the end is no more fallible than any other concious being? The events in the Silmarillion are the result of many people making many mistakes of varying sizes causing chain reactions coming together to cause catastrophes, to blame it all on one person is ridiculous.
Besides, how do you know that Feanor really was to blame for the kinslaying and all? All we have is a book, written by a human, stating that he was the maker of the silmarils and that the war was fought over the silmarils.
How can we be sure that the theft of the silmarils was really the cause? It could have been something else entirely with Feanor and his creations being convinient objects/persons to cast the blame upon.
The entire basis for your argument that he is at fault could be a historical misrepresentation.

(For the sake of the argument we will ignore the fact that the 'history' in question is fictional.)

[Count Comfect]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

one, single elf who in the end is no more fallible than any other concious being

I think that point is something that is being contested here.

As I see it, yes, it is all a very complex web - but every bad thing traces back to Feänor, as at least some of the cause. And that isn't true for other people/elves/what have you with the possible exception of Morgoth, who is just too easy and Eru, which is reductive.

And the Sil isn't like the Lord of the Rings/Book of Westmarch - much more of an omniscient account, much less of a Hobbit history book.

Also, we sort of have to assume what we have is accurate - otherwise any argument has no conclusion as anything could be an inaccuracy.

ALL of which is not to say that you don't have a perfectly valid point and that this isn't fair. But it's not supposed to be fair - it's supposed to blame Feänor

[Elemmírë]

First of all, I have to thank Willow Oran for coming into this thread, since we've definitely needed a challenge.

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Whoa, wait a minute, don't you think this is just a bit unfair? To say that everything wrong in Middle Earth is the fault of this one, single elf who in the end is no more fallible than any other concious being?

Fëanor may have been no more fallible than anyone else (save perhaps Morgoth, as Count Comfect mentioned), but he certainly caused much more damage. Without Fëanor, many of the events of the First Age, and subsequently, the Second and Third would not have occurred. What would have come about instead is anyone's guess.

The theoretical aspect of the situation is hardly important, I feel. We are not claiming that everything would have been perfect and wonderful without Fëanor, only that everything wrong that happened arguably originated with him. Though we cannot prove that the Noldor would not have returned without Fëanor, it is unarguable, I think, that in the mythos he was indeed the cause of the Return, and thus the cause of all that happened after it.

The events in the Silmarillion are the result of many people making many mistakes of varying sizes causing chain reactions coming together to cause catastrophes, to blame it all on one person is ridiculous.

But the fact remains that without the first part of a chain reaction, the rest would not have occurred. Fëanor's Silmarilli are at the root of almost everything that happened. And they exist because of him.

Besides, how do you know that Feanor really was to blame for the kinslaying and all? All we have is a book, written by a human, stating that he was the maker of the silmarils and that the war was fought over the silmarils.

How can we be sure that the theft of the silmarils was really the cause? It could have been something else entirely with Feanor and his creations being convinient objects/persons to cast the blame upon.

The entire basis for your argument that he is at fault could be a historical misrepresentation.

Theoretically, we also have the Noldolantë, written by Maglor Fëanorion. If we can trust anyone to represent Fëanor in the best light possible, it would be one of his sons. And as Count Comfect already mentioned, it is likely that the Silmarillion is a complilation of many different, in some cases most likely first hand, accounts. In my mind, this explains the various different versions. However, all of them have Fëanor as the maker of the Silmarilli and the direct cause of the Return.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by Willow Oran

Besides, how do you know that Feanor really was to blame for the kinslaying and all? All we have is a book, written by a human, stating that he was the maker of the silmarils and that the war was fought over the silmarils.

Even if it wasn't him that suggested and probably forced the idea of killing the Teleri (I think it was btw) then he ca still be blamed! If it wasn't for Fëanor swearing that darned Oath and leading the best part of the Noldor into Middle-earth then none of the kinslayings would have occured and the Valar would probably attacked Morgoth sooner out of mercy and compassion for the Silvan elves.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

the Valar would probab;y attacked mOrgoth sooner out of mercy and compassion for the Silvan elves.

oh really? the valar are the ones who deserve the blame... they left poor Fëanor little choice but to take things into his hands... they knew the kinslaying was going to happen, yet they did nothing to stop it... at the very least they could have provided passage across the sea to those who wished to leave

"someone stole your silmarils and killed your father? that's too bad, but there is really nothing we can do about it"

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Because the Valar would not aid nor hinder the Noldor's quest. If they did we'd all be here blaming th Valar for killing half the Noldor, to prevent them from killing themselves.

[Count Comfect]

Also, just because someone killed your father and stole the Silmarils, you still don't have a right to start butchering other elves and bringing fire and death to any who oppose you. I think.

[brownjenkins]

so a return trip to ME was too much to ask for?

they seemed to have no problem sticking their noses in when they wanted some company in their little paradise... but when someone wants to leave all the sudden it's a matter of principle

[Count Comfect]

Well, that is true. The Valar are not without blame. But it still remains that without Feänor, the kinslaying and the wars of the Oath would not have happened. Hence the blame.

[Blackheart]

Feanor is Tolkien's version of Kevin Bacon... which is the best reason to hate him...

[Falagar]

I'd say we blame Eru, who started the whole thing in the first place. And Fëanor is innocent; his evil twin-brother made him do it.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Falagar

I'd say we blame Eru, who started the whole thing in the first place. And Fëanor is innocent; his evil twin-brother made him do it.

exactly... that's what happens when you try to "play god"

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Even if it wasn't him that suggested and probably forced the idea of killing the Teleri (I think it was btw) then he ca still be blamed!

It was Feanor. The Teleri were not willing to give up their ships, or teach the Noldor how to build any, so Feanor acted with his usual disregard for other's well-being and killed a bunch 'till he and the Noldor were able to escape with the entire fleet of ships. Leaving a blood bath behind. And that's only the beginning of his doomed quest.

[Wayfarer]

It was Melkor's lust for Feanor's jewels that caused him to partner with Ungoliant and assault Valinor. So it was Feanor's fault that the trees were destroyed.

Which, come to think of it, is a good thing. Those Valar, braying, incompetent asses, that they were, had been selfishly keeping all the light in the world locked away to themselves. The trees being destroyed was good.

So, Feanor was to blame for at least one good thing.