07-07-2003, 09:00 AM | #1321 |
Elven Warrior
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what universal law states that variations always stay within the species? what forces in nature prevent a variation or mutation from producing a different species all together, given a significant amount of time?
there are none that i am currently aware of.
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07-07-2003, 09:43 AM | #1322 |
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Gradually, the lines begin to blur, it's all about time and numbers...not rigid limitations! Small increments of change, repeated exponentially. (sort of like a rumour) A moth produces a moth that's a "little" different. That one lucks out and finds an environmental niche to it's liking and is able to reproduce well. This situation easily repeats itself, a vast number of times, with each small change, the number of possibilities (from the original moth) widens on all fronts, branching out, ultimately creating a vast amount of variations from the original moth....to the point that the lines (between species) are indeed, becoming very blurred, the "X to the 2000th power" offspring seeming very *unmoth-like*. So, given enough time, the numbers are there to allow you to end up with something different. An actual "mutation" (which does happen from time to time) MIGHT cause a sharper turn in the process, leading to who knows what exciting variations. Given all the possiblities of environmental niches and situations (which seems infinite to me), the numbers tell me that most anything is possible. I follow this type of scenario easily, Magic invisible man in the sky....no.
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07-07-2003, 05:15 PM | #1323 |
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Couldn't have said it better, myself.
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07-07-2003, 08:31 PM | #1324 | |
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I could also say "well, given enough time, moths will change into Corvettes", and I think you guys would (justifiably) ridicule that idea. But after all, as JD (IIRC) said before, everything's just a collection of chemicals anyway. What stops me from saying that? You can SAY "given enough time", but there is no justification for it, IMO, since we've never seen any indication of any type of change happening, except variation within species, which makes perfect sense. Even with things like fruit flies where you can get many generations quickly, fruit flies produce fruit flies, ALWAYS. Do you agree? IOW, creationism and evolution both place bounds on the type of change they expect to see. Creationism expects to see variation within species (and we see it!); evolutionism expects to see change up the ladder (species, genus, family, etc.), and we don't see it. But neither do we "see" a creator in a laboratory, of course. As I said above, neither main premise may be scientifically proven. But we can look at supporting evidence.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-07-2003 at 08:37 PM. |
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07-07-2003, 08:42 PM | #1325 | |
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Magic changes from moth to Corvette, or fish to man .... no.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-07-2003 at 08:44 PM. |
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07-07-2003, 09:05 PM | #1326 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Rian, have you ever observed an atom, an x-ray, the wind? These thinngs can only be observed indirectly by the effect they have. Observation is an unrealistic standard of proof.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-07-2003, 10:26 PM | #1327 | |
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That is so true Cirdan! Rian.....You can't observe what takes lots of time. Plain and simple. Are you so egocentric (as a human) that if it doesn't happen in your lifespan, (or a couple of human lifespans) you can't believe it's true? Besides, evolution IS happening....all the time, all around us. It just goes on so slowly we can't "see" it. The same way mountains are made! I feel rather ridiculous stating the obvious here. I honestly think you are just being stubborn, selectively blind...by choice, because this logical, very widely accepted scientific theory does not match what you have chosen to believe for many, many years. (Of course, believe what you wish...it's your life.) Given what we (I) have observed the theory of evolution DOES seem logical! (unless of course, you have religious "blinders" on) We only "observe" a tiny squirt of time in this world we are living in. Our little 80 year jaunt here on earth is a meaningless *piff* in the history of life on this planet. You will never "observe" evolution taking place. As I stated before, the main ingredient in the theory of evolution is time. But it is logical, and documented in many instances (please reread this thread for examples) and also in our genetic code. I am not going to stick MY head in the sand just because *change* makes me uncomfortable! Seek the truth! What I find hard to fathom is the choice to believe in an all powerful, magic, invisible man in the sky..... who comes from ?????, and whips the whole world up with his *magic powers* in six days! Really! Believe what you wish, but don't try to tell me I'm wrong!
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07-07-2003, 10:33 PM | #1328 | |
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07-07-2003, 11:26 PM | #1329 | |
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07-07-2003, 11:50 PM | #1330 |
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Have you ever heard of antibiotic resistance?
That IS evolution. It can be observed. Evolution is a fact. Or are you going to say that antibiotic resistance is a myth?
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-08-2003, 01:00 PM | #1331 |
Elven Warrior
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the hardest thing to do is to let go of you belief in the christian god. but once you do it, it will be like a load of bricks off your back. enabling you to concentrate on the things that matter in life, like your family and children. and for once in your life you can finally put the importance of your family, not "god", as your top priority in life.
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"........and his name is Melkor, Lord of All, Giver of Freedom, and he shall make you stronger than they."- sauron talking to ar pharazon. |
07-08-2003, 03:35 PM | #1332 | |
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07-08-2003, 04:19 PM | #1333 | |
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I would say that the wind and an x-ray are similar. One can measure the wavelength of an x-ray, or the speed of the wind. Our current description of the makeup of an atom is theoretical, however, and has been changed as we've improved observation techniques. How do these 3 things compare to macro evolution? I don't see a correlation.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-08-2003, 04:29 PM | #1334 | |
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There is no gain of information, which is essential to macro evolution, and the virus is still .... a virus. Do you agree?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-08-2003, 04:32 PM | #1335 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-08-2003, 04:38 PM | #1336 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-08-2003 at 04:40 PM. |
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07-08-2003, 04:41 PM | #1337 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-08-2003, 04:54 PM | #1338 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-08-2003, 05:47 PM | #1339 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Cirdan - I just took a quick look at the site, but saw several big problems - one of them on the pharyngeal pouches.
From your website - "Example 2: vertebrate pharyngeal pouches and branchial arches There are numerous other examples in which an organism's evolutionary history is represented temporarily in its development. ..." I thought this idea was thrown out a long time ago...and what do ears have to do with gills? Vertebrate pharyngeal pouches turn into .... EAR parts, along with other things, NOTHING of which involves gill functions. The folds are .... folds!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-08-2003 at 07:53 PM. |
07-08-2003, 05:53 PM | #1340 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Evidence for creationism #1 - Fossils
(whoops, posted in wrong place )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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