Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Rían]

Well, it's late and there's not enough time for the justice/abhorrance thing, that'll have to wait for Monday. But I'll be checking in to look at responses/questions on the posts I made today. Perhaps it's just as well I ran out of time, I posted quite a bit today!! *digs Ruinel in the sides with elbow - "wake up!" *

[Ruinel]

*snort* hello!? I was just getting to the good part in my dream. The part where posting in this thread made sense. LOL ... just joking.

The bible is full of holes, half-truths and non-truths because the people who wrote it were primitive. They were trying to make sense of a complicated world. In the beginning, when humans began to wonder about their existance and the world around them, they make up a system of tales that explain why the sun crosses the sky each day, where they come from and why they should do this ceremony or sacrifice, or make this rule/law. At first, this information is passed down orally. From generation to generation. Then comes the written language and eventually, humans put their beliefs in a book... the bible. Man created god to understand the world and human existance. For most people, this helps them to feel safe, that there is a great father-like figure out there somewhere that loves them and punishes them when they are bad.

Religions, all religions, have worked under peer pressure and the threat to individual liberties. If you belong to a small community/society of people and they all think that everyone should sacrifice the first born calf in the month of April to the great god X or the great god X will make the mountain shake and the lava flow from it, then they will all do it. Many Jews were converted during the Inquisition period in Europe. Many native people in the US were also converted when the Americas were first explored and missionaries were brought over with the explorers and their troops.

I could end this thread very easily by asking one question which everyone has posed to themselves, if not out loud, at one time or another. If there is a supreme all-powerful being with limitless abilities, such as creating a universe and life, then why do pedophiles still torture, rape and kill innocent children? But I will not ask this question. Because it would end this thread.

[HOBBIT]

But Runiel, the answer is simple: god wants it that way, god has his ways, god is testing us, god wants us to make choices for ourselves. Why do you believe? It says so in the bible. Why do you believe the bible is the word of god? It says so in the bible?
Its a huge loop that goes round and round.

Btw, runiel, did you read my long post on (i believe) top of page 65. Everyone seems to have ingored it, yet I think I made AT LEAST one good point :P

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
But Runiel, the answer is simple: god wants it that way, god has his ways, god is testing us, god wants us to make choices for ourselves. Why do you believe? It says so in the bible. Why do you believe the bible is the word of god? It says so in the bible?
Its a huge loop that goes round and round.

Btw, runiel, did you read my long post on (i believe) top of page 65. Everyone seems to have ingored it, yet I think I made AT LEAST one good point :P

And don't forget that if he did come down from his high place and stop such horrible acts, then we would not have free will to harm or not harm these innocent children.

Yes.. I read it. I was not ignoring it.

I also believe that these ceremonies are all engrained in a Human's need for ritual. It all stems from the begining when religions were first formed. Perform the ritual and almighty god X will make a good harvest next season and will bring you into the afterlife with him. If not, you did something wrong.
And now the rituals are circumcision (although I think that looks better than the leaving the foreskin on... sorry if I've shocked or offended anyone!), baptism, confirmation, bat/barmitzvah, ritual group prayer, confession, or 'eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood'. It is all done for the sake of appeasing god X.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
[BI could end this thread very easily by asking one question which everyone has posed to themselves, if not out loud, at one time or another. If there is a supreme all-powerful being with limitless abilities, such as creating a universe and life, then why do pedophiles still torture, rape and kill innocent children? But I will not ask this question. Because it would end this thread. [/B]

Go ahead and ask, Ruinel. It would not end this thread, believe me. There is an answer for that, if you have the honesty to take the time to consider what I will post on it, AFTER I finish with EG's question, and AFTER I discuss IP's posts, then AFTER I discuss Hobbits's posts. But you WILL have to wait, if you want to hear from me.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Btw, runiel, did you read my long post on (i believe) top of page 65. Everyone seems to have ingored it, yet I think I made AT LEAST one good point :P

Geez, Hobbit, have you read my posts to you about this? Really, you guys are being very unfair! People are asking me complex questions (and it would be silly to believe that complex questions have easy answers!!!), and I'm not independently wealthy or anything where I have just loads of time!! I've said several times I WOULD GET TO YOUR POSTS WHEN I'M DONE WITH EG"S QUESTION!!!!!

Shall I say it again? I WILL GET TO YOUR POSTS WHEN I'M DONE WITH EG'S QUESTION!!!!!

I'm very sorry I can't go any faster, but that's reality. What have I done to earn this disrespect? I wish we could all get together and talk in person, but we can't, so please just be patient! If you prefer to make flippant remarks, I guess I can't stop you, but I don't think that's kind or honest.

So if you want to be constructive here, instead of just flippant and insulting, then what do you think of the topic I"m currently dealing with? What do you think about the multiple long posts I made on free will? I spent several HOURS on those, and a lot of thought, because I like EG, and she is asking sincere questions and is willing to be patient and to consider what I do say when I get the time. Are you guys willing to act the same way?

[HOBBIT]

Well excuse me, I have the right to be impatient, don't I? Um, I skimmed your long posts - very nice

[HOBBIT]

I actually did read most of it - very nice. It looks like you put a lot of thought into those posts - also I disagree with almost everything you say.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
...also I disagree with almost everything you say.

What a shocker!

Ok Rian. Consider the question posed if you want to respond to it. Although, I'm sure that Hobbit and I have already answer it for you.

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
I actually did read most of it - very nice. It looks like you put a lot of thought into those posts - also I disagree with almost everything you say.

Well, that's fine, I've never minded people having different opinions, but let's discuss it (if you want to) - what areas do you disagree with? And what is your logic behind it?

[HOBBIT]

That subject does not really interest me though. Perhaps later (like after June 18th).

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
That subject does not really interest me though. Perhaps later (like after June 18th).

June 18th is the release date for Tomb Raider: the Angel of Darkness!

[gollum9630]

and the day before i go for my road test to get my N

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
That subject does not really interest me though. Perhaps later (like after June 18th).

Hobbit - Well, if it doesn't interest you, then don't bother I'll get to your pg. 65 post as soon as I can, as I've said previously. I hope to finish up the hell discussion tomorrow. I'm just interested to hear people's reasons when they say that they disagree. As I said, I'm not asking you to believe the Bible is true here - that's another question - but I'm showing how things logically hang together in the doctrinal position on this matter, and how I believe that the statements that I've heard about hell from non-Christians are wrong. Do you have a logical objection to the reasoning in my posts, or is it just an overall you-don't-believe-in-the-Bible thing?

Is June 18th graduation?

If you want, I can PM you when I'm ready to discuss your post. Again, I'm v. sorry I can't work any faster!


IronParrot - have you seen my response to your objection about truth?


Ruinel - if you want, I can PM you when I'm ready to discuss your topic, so you don't have to wade thru long posts on other topics. But I warn you, if you are interested on my opinion on your question, you will NOT get short, silly, simplistic posts. If you are not patient enough to go thru and logically and impartially consider my long posts, that I put a lot of time into, then let me know, and withdraw your question, please. And I say that if you're NOT willing to think about things like this, and to read thru the posts of someone that has been a Christian for 30 years and has studied a lot, then you are really not interested in the answer to your question at all. Would you agree?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Wow! My internet was down over the weekend, and eep! Many big posts! I really don't think that I will be able (or maybe just don't feel like it ) to answer all of these posts, so I won't try. The only I'll say for now is something that doesn't matter to IronParrot: I believe YHWH is actually "replaced" with "the LORD your God" not "the Lord God" in the KJV.

[HOBBIT]

yes, june 18th is graduation....basically swamped with work. and yes - basically an overall disagreeing with you on the bible. when i have more time, ill be happy to go over your posts about free will and see if i really agree with it or not...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Ruinel- if you want, I can PM you when I'm ready to discuss your topic, so you don't have to wade thru long posts on other topics. But I warn you, if you are interested on my opinion on your question, you will NOT get short, silly, simplistic posts. If you are not patient enough to go thru and logically and impartially consider my long posts, that I put a lot of time into, then let me know, and withdraw your question, please. And I say that if you're NOT willing to think about things like this, and to read thru the posts of someone that has been a Christian for 30 years and has studied a lot, then you are really not interested in the answer to your question at all. Would you agree?

If you want, you can pm me anytime. If I can post with you, I will. It is not possible for me to be impartial since I already have an opinion on the subject.
However, I do read the posts. It is just that sometimes I am not in the mood for long winded discussions. No offense intended. Please post what you will. These posts are not just for you and me, others may want to read them also.

[Rían]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
yes, june 18th is graduation....basically swamped with work.

So close ... and yet so far ...!

Good luck!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
It is not possible for me to be impartial since I already have an opinion on the subject.

Well, I just don't understand ... you accuse Christians of being close-minded, don't you? What's the difference?

I think this thread is not just a "this is my opinion" thread, tho. It started as a continuation of a discussion that was going on between Anduril and me that was starting to take over another thread, then when questions arose from other people as a result of the discussion, it pretty much turned into a thread for discussing questions that people have about Christianity. Since I happen to have been a Christian the longest of anyone on Entmoot that I know of, it kinda makes sense for people to ask me, personally, which they often do (just as I would ask YOU, Ruinel, if I had a question about Finrod )

People on the Moot have had some questions about Christianity, and I believe that I have logical answers for the vast majority of them, due to many years of study. If people are sincerely interested in finding answers to the questions, then usually a very interesting discussion takes place. Due to the nature of the questions, however, often I have to make lengthy posts! I feel it wouldn't be doing justice to either the person or the question if I just did snappy little quick answers.

Here I go again, I meant this to be short - all I really wanted to say is that - well, I'm not quite sure how to word this - how about: yes, I know you have opinions, but I believe your opinions to be based on a faulty understanding of Christian doctrine, and if you're truly concerned with questions like the one you posed to me, then you'll be interested to hear what a long-time Christian has to say about it. IOW, if you're going to abuse Christianity because of questions like the one you posed, then I will object, and I'll give you reasons WHY and in what areas I believe your opinion to be at fault.

Rats! I just can't seem to word things well today! I re-read this post, and I'm not getting across what I want to say! How's this: you believe in evolution, and I believe in creationism - both of our beliefs (at least mine is, and I'll assume that yours is) are based on careful and honest evaluation of the data that is out there. Now on THIS thread, you've posed a question that on the face of it looks like a valid objection - and here's the main point - a valid objection to Christian doctrine. However, I say that I am more familiar than you are with Christian doctrine, and I can explain the underlying faulty premises on which you base your objection. And that's where the discussion part comes in, so it doesn't matter that you currently have an opinion on the subject. I'll ask you to re-evaluate your opinion based on some new/corrected premises.

Does that make sense? You may come up with the same opinion, but I ask to you re-evaluate based on new information.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
1) Since I happen to have been a Christian the longest of anyone on Entmoot that I know of, it kinda makes sense for people to ask me, personally, which they often do 2) (just as I would ask YOU, Ruinel, if I had a question about Finrod )
3) Due to the nature of the questions, however, often I have to make lengthy posts! I feel it wouldn't be doing justice to either the person or the question if I just did snappy little quick answers.

1) Not to mention probably one of the best Christians, one of the most well-spoken (and politest) Christians, the starter of the thread...the list goes on and on.
2) But SGH's been drooling over him MUCH longer.
3) Amen and amen. Christianity aren't as simple-minded as peopel seem to think.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Ok Rian. Consider the question posed if you want to respond to it. Although, I'm sure that Hobbit and I have already answer it for you.

*steam comes out of RÃ*an's ears*

Don't you dare answer for me - I can almost guarantee you'll be wrong! I might have to ..... get really MAD!!!! if you try to answer for me!!!