07-03-2003, 11:56 AM | #1281 | ||
Elf Lord
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After fifteen years of teaching "American" I have adapted to using AmE spelling; though I note that, in my clashes on politics with JD I (quite unconsciously) reverted back to BrE However, since my name comes from my favorite fantasy hero (small, fast, smart, slightly kinky) created by (American) Fritz Leiber, the Gray sp. is correct Quote:
As has been pointed out, over and over, evolution is the accumulation of change over generations.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-03-2003, 12:01 PM | #1282 | ||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
After fifteen years of teaching "American" I have adapted to using AmE spelling; though I note that, in my clashes on politics with JD I (quite unconsciously) reverted back to BrE However, since my name comes from my favorite fantasy hero (small, fast, smart, slightly kinky) created by (American) Fritz Leiber, the Gray sp. is correct Quote:
As has been pointed out, over and over, evolution is the accumulation of change over generations. Question: what is the difference between 'micro' and 'macro'? To an evolutionist, 'macro' is simply the accumulation of 'micro' To a creationist, what stops the accumulation? what mechanism in the organism says this far and no farther? A change in body size of plus 0.1% per generation doesn't take too many generations to turn a mouse into an elephant.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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07-03-2003, 12:06 PM | #1283 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by RÃ*an
[B]And here's comments on the rest of Cirdan's post... But in that example, Cirdan, there is an intelligent designer behind the process!! Acc'd to evolutionism, there ISN'T intelligence behind the process, just chance and time. So why is that example any good in this situation? The intermediates, by def., had to be more SUCCESSFUL to be selected. Major changes, such as air breathing versus water, would be diferently successful, wereas better air breathing would be competatively successful and thus replace prototypical air-breathers rapidly through micro evolutionary steps instead of macro. The use of the ID designer is not the point. It is the scarcity of fossils or prototypical types that is the point. Have you ever been fossil hunting? I was the only person in a month of field camp to find a trilobite. Quote:
I'm not sure how you would expect the observation and I don't know that it has not been indirectly observed. I think it would be hard to observe it as it happens if that's what you mean. Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-03-2003, 12:18 PM | #1284 | ||
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Rian said in the quote snipped above... Quote:
1) She doesn't believe the evidence on its own merits. 2) She doesn't think that God would use Evolution, based on her understanding of the Creator's psychology. Point 1 doesn't (logically) have anything to do with religious belief; it's entirely consistent for an atheist to adopt this attitude. Point 2 doesn't (logically) have anything to do with science or evidence; who knows what the Creator was thinking?
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 07-03-2003 at 12:21 PM. |
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07-03-2003, 12:26 PM | #1285 | |||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-03-2003, 12:42 PM | #1286 | |
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This "'fish to philosophers' thing" is one one these so called "common sense" arguements that has no real basis in fact but is meant to sound appealling to the layman.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-03-2003 at 01:02 PM. |
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07-03-2003, 12:57 PM | #1287 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(hey Cirdan and GrayMouser, you messy fellows Could you please go back and edit your posts? My quotes and your responses are all jumbled together! And tho I imagine they're having a nice time ("pass the cream and sugar, would you, luv?" "Right, and here's a biscuit, too!"), it's hard to read the posts, so could you please segregate them?)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-03-2003 at 12:58 PM. |
07-03-2003, 01:09 PM | #1288 |
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(...and btw, for those who are complaining that I didn't start with the evidence (looks in the direction of .... oh, nevermind!), I DID start, so there Here's where I started: first evidence post. So there! )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
07-03-2003, 01:20 PM | #1289 | ||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-03-2003 at 01:24 PM. |
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07-03-2003, 01:28 PM | #1290 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-03-2003, 01:31 PM | #1291 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-03-2003, 01:35 PM | #1292 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-03-2003, 01:42 PM | #1293 | |
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Please don't think I'm trying to knock the guy down - I'm not. There is NOTHING personal about it, and I read about the marking, etc. and thought many of the things he did were careful and intelligent. However, as detailed in my post a few posts above this one, there were some big flaws in technique (NOT in the person! There is nothing personal here!) that IMO, should either cause the experiment to be removed from textbooks, or put into the historical section (like in your book) BUT WITH DESCRIPTIONS of the areas in which the experiment was flawed, because it is really misrepresenting the results otherwise, which is NOT scientific. Would you agree?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-03-2003, 01:46 PM | #1294 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-03-2003, 02:19 PM | #1295 | |||
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It is clearly an evolutionist site; should I ignore it, like some do with creationist sites? No, I think I'll look at the data and ignore the use of insulting words. And I think the data is that their experts disagree with Well's experts. They basically cited only 3 authors - Majerus, Grant and Cook - and said their authors were better. I think that other authors disagree. Also I found the sample size of n=47 to be pretty insignificant - do you? I think that they did, however, properly point out that Wells' use of the subtitle "Peppered moths don't rest on tree trunks" was incorrect, since some moths have been observed on tree trunks. I think it would be better to say something like "Peppered Moths don't typically rest on tree trunks", or prob. something even stronger, like "hardly ever", just to be exact. However, as a subtitle for a section, it might be fine, because he does, in the text, qualify that statement. And certainly as a generalization, the subtitle is true. I don't recall their addressing the daytime torpid issue, tho, and they seemed to revert to the "well, natural selection happens, so there's no harm in using the example" rationalization. Well, IMO, if it happens (which I think it does), then go out there and do a proper experiment in honor of the many things Kettlewell did right, but don't continue using a flawed one. Quote:
BTW, I wondered where you got your name from - I'm glad you explained. I don't remember GrayMouser, but I liked Mighty Mouse when I was growing up - do you remember him?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-03-2003 at 02:24 PM. |
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07-03-2003, 02:38 PM | #1296 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-03-2003, 02:44 PM | #1297 |
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I'm reading these posts... and I'm just so disappointed. Perhaps, even today, people need to believe that all this just popped out of thin air and was created by an omnipotent supernatural being. All the evidence points away from that, but hey... who am I to squash someones religious beliefs anyway. I've seen people post that there's no scientific evidence that supports the theory of evolution... how sad. You know, just because you say there's no evidence, doesn't make it so. But hey... who am I to argue with someone about their irrational beliefs (about the evidence or lack of).
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07-03-2003, 02:56 PM | #1298 | |||
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-03-2003 at 02:58 PM. |
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07-03-2003, 02:58 PM | #1299 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-03-2003, 03:12 PM | #1300 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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