05-29-2003, 10:53 PM | #1261 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Yeah, I was thinking the Old Testament law.
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05-29-2003, 10:54 PM | #1262 |
Elf Lord
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Woops! Spiderman going on in the background . . . will be back in an hour or two . Will respond later.
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05-30-2003, 12:46 AM | #1263 | |||
Elf Lord
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There was once an argument made by a prominent Christian in the past that "Christianity is correct . . . because who but God could raise the sun through the heavens?" He received widespread support, at the time. Christianity suffered for it afterward. The Catholic doctrine that the sun, moon and stars rotated around the Earth came from a Biblical passage in Psalms. The Biblical passage said, basically, "The Earth shall not be moved." That seems pretty straightforward. And it seems pretty straightforward that science flat out contradicts it. However, our scientific knowledge has increased from where it was then. The theory of General Relativity is now broadly accepted, and by its definition, the movement of objects is relative. It is acceleration that depicts movement. The Earth is not accelerating, therefore it is not moving. The Biblical passage seemed correct, and then it was proved incorrect, but now is thought to be correct again. Sometimes the simplest solution is not the answer, but does that say anything against God's Word? The difficulty is, you're limiting God by not accepting a universal truth. Here's another thing that can be taught us about God through the Theory of General Relativity. Everything is relative. However, even though everything is relative, one thing is a constant throughout, and that is light. Quote:
Now, the Bible goes a lot deeper than that. Christians learn from it and keep learning from it all their lives. It's like peeling skins off an onion (To quote my Grandmother). God reveals one truth to you, and then when you're ready for the next, he reveals another. Christians have spent weeks studying single passages of the Bible, meditating on them, and learning from them. So the Bible does go deeper. The books is capable of reaching people where they are at and then God continues to teach them new things through it in the future. |
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05-30-2003, 01:05 AM | #1264 | |||
Elf Lord
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I don't really remember where the Bible bred intolerance for other faiths, except in a few specific cases. Of course, it said that Christianity is the one true faith, but I think that is just as true today as it was then. However, although we do see evangelists in the New Testament, I don't recall us seeing them cursing people of other faiths, or anything like that. In the Old Testament, they were dealing with horrible religions though. Ones in which girls were traditionally selected by men and raped (The Canaanites), in which human sacrifices were offered, in which black magic was done . . . horrible evils that I think God was perfectly right to punish. Quote:
We have evidence that the Bible's Old Testament is in its accurate form, dating from 1500 B.C. The New Testament also is basically proved to be in its original form. I can post you all sorts of stuff on this, if you want it. Quote:
And now as accuracy as far as the spiritual truths goes. I think Lizra and other Atheists have concluded Jesus was a good man. The things he preaches are righteous and good, in my opinion. Only as far as coming to know him goes do people disagree, though that's primarily because they haven't followed his words themselves, on that topic. These spiritual truths I think were just as correct for people in the past as they are for people now. People in the past would benefit just as much as present day people do by following Jesus' mercy. To me, they seem like universal truths, no matter which age you live in. There were some that were customs, and those were brought up in the New and Old Testaments. We can still learn from some of these customs, and some of them are still applicable today. The Ten Commandments and the words of Jesus were universal, in my opinion. Jesus said that "heaven and earth may pass away, but my words will never pass away". Despite severe persecution and the near impossible circumstances the Early Church was faced with, his words have prevailed. You might disagree that his words are universal in being good laws for humanity to follow. Sometimes they might seem impractical, but God gives his people the ability to follow them. Here we get into spiritual experience, again. The spiritual side is closely tied in with the moral laws side. |
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05-30-2003, 01:30 AM | #1265 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I can get into the pre-Solomon events, if anyone wants information on that. I'd be talking from one of my Dad's written books, but it has some really, really cool stuff in it that shows things about the Old Testament's likely to be accurate in its description of things all the way back to Joseph. My Dad has a lot of material on the flood, and he's writing a book on that topic and on the topic of pre-flood events. Unfortunately, it's not finished yet, so I can't quote it. So I can't speak on the flood. EXCEPT!!! That there are dinosaur findings on the different continents to the same, or extremely similar species. The dinosaurs were supposed to come after the continental divide. There's my proof . Just kidding. Although what I said is true, I can't tackle current scientific thought on the flood at this time. Not yet . Quote:
Anyway. That was one of the experiences of divine guidance I had. Nobody has to respond to it. |
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05-30-2003, 01:58 AM | #1266 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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*checks to see if she is foaming at the mouth...* At least I can spell ... *nudges Ru in the side*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-30-2003, 02:18 AM | #1267 | |
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05-30-2003, 02:21 AM | #1268 | |
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*Well, I just saw Matrix Reloaded again. . .it's kind of a major theme
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05-30-2003, 02:28 AM | #1269 | ||||||
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You're not allowed to do that to the Bible, and that is where its being full of holes becomes a problem. If it didn't claim universality and infallibility, I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. You'll note that the Hebrews began as a henotheistic civilization that recognized YHWH (the name replaced by "The Lord God" in the KJV) of the Old Testament as a patron god of those nomads. Without the claim to universality, there was no problem. It wasn't until Christianity and the New Testament that the perspective on the Old Testament was radically altered - and that only applies to you Christians. Quote:
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05-30-2003, 02:28 AM | #1270 | ||||||
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How exactly does the Judeo-Christian moral standard justify itself as being the world standard? Saving you the trouble of answering, it doesn't. Quote:
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Shakespeare's Julius Caesar is consistent with the historical events it depicts. There really was a guy named Caesar in a place named Rome, not to mention the dynamic duo of Brutus and Antony. And there really was a guy named Macbeth who seized the throne by way of murder and was later killed himself. Does that suddenly make every little detail in Shakespeare's work true? Better example: we have archaelogical evidence that there really was a place named Troy that was sacked by the Greeks. Does that suddenly mean Achilles was really invincible but for his heel? Or that Paris took Helen by way of divine ordinance? Or that there were really such things as Charybdis, Cyclops and the Sirens? We actually have no proof against any of this, it's just that it's pretty unreasonable. But we can disregard that, just as we can disregard claims of the Bible being unreasonable, right? There really was a King Arthur, as we've seen from archaelogical evidence. Does that mean he really did pull Excalibur out of the stone because of divine providence and predestination? Nobody denies that the Bible was a portrait of history, but it was a history littered with a bunch of other unverifiable stuff. Gone With The Wind is a pretty accurate depiction of the American Civil War, Reconstruction, the formation of the Ku Klux Klan and other matters; so suddenly, Rhett and Scarlett must exist too? The truth of a part does not imply the truth of the whole. Major, major logical fallacy here, which is why I've spent way too many paragraphs expounding on it.
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05-30-2003, 02:29 AM | #1271 | |||
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The Ten Commandments are applicable because other than the whole "Thou shalt have no other god before me" bit, it agrees with some things that we accept in our society. To refrain from killing is probably good advice because killing upsets the stability of our environment. So does adultery. So does not loving thy neighbours. That's why we codify legality and leave morality to individual judgment. The Ten Commandments are applicable to me (other than the one I singled out), but I am not bound to live by them. My actions are, however, bound by the law that maintains our society. And of course there are similarities between divine law and human law, because the general sense of morality in our society is influenced by religiously-founded traditions. But that only applies to Western society, and you can't expect the same of places founded on other faiths. But as I pointed out, following human law is part of our social contract with the state in which we live. I do not have a social contract with God. Morals and laws have things in common, but they are not in any way the same thing. You can live by moral principles by which you feel you are governed, but do not presume that I am governed by the same principles. Quote:
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05-30-2003, 02:46 AM | #1272 | |
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Reminds me of Obi-Wan Kenobi. "So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view." And just as we couldn't really be sure that Luke's father was dead, we can't really be sure that anything we think the Bible says is correct. I'm awaiting the day when God descends upon us and writes a preface to the Bible that boils down to, "It wasn't supposed to be an allegory of World War II!" But seriously: where are we even given any indication that the events of Revelations will occur? As for prophecies coming true, this largely amounts to fitting data to a fuzzy text. It was pointed out immediately after September 11th that a lot of its events matched up to Nostradamus really well. Does Nostradamus' impressive track record (never mind the fact that we had to bend a few arms backwards to make the predictions match history) indicate that every one of his so-called prophecies must be brought to fruition? Take the Messiah, for example. When the Old Testament said there was going to be one, people were bound to start pointing fingers sooner or later, and the ones who pointed them at Christ just managed to develop a pretty big following. (Killing thousands during the Crusades certainly helped here.) Note that not everybody who subscribes to the Old Testament does so to the New one. What if two thousand years from now, Mormons have a huge following? Will their popularity and resilience suddenly make them right?
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05-30-2003, 03:12 AM | #1273 | ||
Elf Lord
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05-30-2003, 03:12 AM | #1274 |
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If God governs the universe, then I think some principles of government can be applied to Him.
I believe that the democracy and laws under which I live govern me legitimately for several reasons: - It is possible for citizens to vote the government out of office - It is possible for citizens to run for government and participate in legislation, changing laws with the growing needs of society - The government is ultimately accountable to the people - The government is not above the law - Political opponents are free to assemble and criticize the government Let's look at God, under the assumption that the Bible is infallibly True with a capital T. - It is not possible to vote Him out of office - It is possible for us as human beings to affect divine "law" - God is not accountable to His so-called "children" - God is omnipotent and is unrestrained by His own principles - Political opponents are "imprisoned" in Hell for eternity So if the Bible represents a universal truth, then God is a repressive dictator. I find it ironic that a society that portrays repressive dictators as so deplorable still places such high value in the supernatural equivalent. I refuse to be governed by a Big Brother in the sky, thank you very much. I didn't vote for your God, and I'm not going to a Hell that doesn't exist for me. Come Judgment Day, I'm going to request legal representation. On the other hand, if the Bible did not presume to be universally True, then not only is it possible to vote God out of office, but people like Constantine "voted Him in", leading to the ultimate collapse of the Pagan Party. (Do not steal this metaphor; I plan to use it for commercial purposes. ) My prevailing point here echoes the one already made by many others before me: go ahead and live your life according to the wisdom of Jesus Christ. Have a good time in Heaven, and don't forget to send me a postcard. But don't you for a moment presume that I am included in your system of Heaven and Hell. They can exist for you as much as you want, but they don't for me, so leave me the purgatory alone.
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05-30-2003, 03:26 AM | #1275 | ||
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Here's an example of my relationship to the state, and the concepts of law and morality.
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05-30-2003, 03:34 AM | #1276 | |||||
Elf Lord
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The problems with the Theory of Relativity lies in the place where it contradicts another major theory . . . I think Quantum Mechanics. Both theories are possible to follow through to their logical conclusions, but the logical conclusions differ. That is because there is still more we have yet to learn in science. When the two theories are tied together, we will have a far more unified outlook. If I remember correctly, electromagnetics also has a major role to play in that contradiction. Quote:
So the Bible doesn't claim to have everything in it. It may not be fallible, even if it does simplify and not go into depth on every topic. Some things are possible to derive from analysis of the scriptures. Some things are explicitly stated. Other things aren't considered relevant enough to God's purpose to include. I don't understand where simplification implies fallibility. Quote:
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05-30-2003, 03:53 AM | #1277 | |||||
Elf Lord
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05-30-2003, 03:56 AM | #1278 |
Elf Lord
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I'm getting too tired to respond to everything you posted, now. I'll do the rest of it later. I like how in your posts you go into both moral and legal aspects . Your posts are well written and well thought out. Very nice, it is, to be able to discuss this with you.
I'll get back to your other posts tomorrow or the day after. Goodnight. |
05-30-2003, 07:21 AM | #1279 | |
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05-30-2003, 10:29 AM | #1280 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-30-2003 at 11:11 AM. |
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