Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Arien the Maia]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
I would say that God has no opposite (in the sense of equal but opposite), but hell is the opposite of heaven.
I like what you say in the rest of your post, altho I would add that the law is GOOD - it's not just some random stuff that God decided to make a law about and then blast people if they didn't obey it. But actually that is the next point I'm going to discuss after justice - the "natural" (or "real") order.

yes you're right...God's Law is good because God is good and He makes His Law a reflection of Himself....to love one another as He loves us

[Rían]

Originally posted by Lizra
Lose the creation story, heaven/hell afterlife, angels...the "unbelievable" stuff!

Many intelligent people find it to be believable, thus applicable, thus worthy of inclusion.

Time to "agree to disagree" with another one! Brick walls.

Many of us are still enjoying discussing things here and have not reached the "brick wall" stage. We'll stop forcing you to read our posts, tho *puts in a call to the Entmoot police and asks them to stop holding Lizra down in a chair in front of her computer reading the Offshoot thread*

[Rían]

Originally posted by Arien the Maia
yes you're right...God's Law is good because God is good and He makes His Law a reflection of Himself....to love one another as He loves us

I like how you worded that - a "reflection of Himself"... it's in harmony with His character.

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
If a society makes laws such as, citizens will not take the life of another unless in self defense, then that society must also have repercussions if that law is broken. Without a negative consequence to breaking the law, the law would have no value and no one would obey it.

Good angle, Ru - I really wasn't thinking that way when I posted my example. Let me think a bit....

hmm, how about this - you're saying that repercussions are appropriate either solely or mainly (is that right?) to give the law "value" (or "teeth"?) so that it will be obeyed, is that right?

Just musing here, because I wasn't thinking along those lines - how would you feel if said pedophile promised sincerely - and you KNEW he would keep that promise - to never do those awful things again, and then he was just let go w/o any penalty whatsoever .... would that be right, in your opinion?

*will have to think about this angle some more....interesting.....*


PS - what do you think of my "God created hell when he was in a bad mood" post? (if you've read it...)

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
OK, the next thing I'd like to talk about is justice. I think that lots of people think (wrongly) of the justice of God, like it's vindictive - like "I"ll get them, they broke my pretty laws!". Or like you said, the "subjugation of the masses" thing - (that one is pretty funny to picture! Reminds me of how I send my kids to their rooms sometimes.... ) - "Dang, I'm losing control of those wild people, oh hell, I'll send 'em all to .. um, hell, and let the nice ones play in heaven with Me!" But is there a non-vindictive, or "right" way, for justice to occur?

Ooh, that's one I need to talk to one of my friends about (or should I say boyfriend? I dunno. It's wierd. Aaaaanyway...) because he said once that that's what he thought was the most important thing in the world: justice. And he's a Religion major.

But right, back to your question....heh...

I'd like to throw it back to you and see what you think about this - to use a rather blatant example, do you think a pedophile/murderer that kidnaps children and then rapes and tortures them then kills them should be left unpunished? If so, why? If not, why not?

Ouch. Nasssty question!
Okay, I'd better start with my explanation of where I personally believe law comes from. Thank you, philosophy class. Yay. And I apologise in advance if my post doesn't make sense...I keep getting distracted by my new CDs (Sleater Kinney! woohoo! )

Law comes from our need to have order in society--this gets into social contract business and giving up certain rights from the state of nature to join society so we can live together relatively peaceably. That's Roussou (gods, I just spelled that wrong, didn't I?), Locke and Hobbes. Such laws are based around, generally, not harming one another, because there are certain rights that need to be protected if we are all to live together somewhat nicely. (these being, life liberty and property generally speaking.) Life and liberty can also be taken in a broader sense to mean freedom from harm. As in, not hurting one another--mentally, physically, emotionally, etc. This makes society work and no one gets hurt. Nice. I might also note that I have a personal belief that any harm done to anyone will come back at you threefold. Coney has mentioned this before. However, that is rather irrevelant, because this is about the justice system instituted by humans, not by...metaphysical...stuff...um...karma and whatnot.

So, your scenario with the serial murderer/pedophile. The very idea of that makes my skin crawl, but for this reason: I cannot comprehend the kind of horror that would inflict. I don't want that happening to me, therefore I don't do it to others. Golden Rule of sorts. Nobody deserves that kind of abuse, and everyone deserves their life, once they are a semi-independant being (ok please no abortion debates here! ). So, yes, that person should be punished. However, human society has priority in the punishment as we have built a society on general principles of trying to make said society work. (NOT moral principles, in my view.) So that theoretical person should be punished by society for breaking the law which is there to protect the rights of citizens, thus making society work. I do not, however, believe that this person should be killed...rather, imprisoned and perhaps made to think on their actions. Something like that. I have my own personal beliefs in addition, but since those sorts of beliefs are, especially in our society where we have freedom of religion, our own and therefore the punishment should be left to society as a whole and not simply to God, karma, the devil, or whatever else may be out there.

I hope I made some sense. I realise also that I repeat myself a lot, and I apologise.

*note to self - deal with "jealous" thing later ... if I remember after discussing hell and Bible ....*

Ooh yay, I can't wait!

[Lizra]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Many intelligent people find it to be believable, thus applicable, thus worthy of inclusion.

Many of us are still enjoying discussing things here and have not reached the "brick wall" stage. We'll stop forcing you to read our posts, tho *puts in a call to the Entmoot police and asks them to stop holding Lizra down in a chair in front of her computer reading the Offshoot thread*

Good idea. Too much "God talk" for me...AIR! This thread, good and evil, and evolution taught in schools one, (plus a few others in back pages) .... and the answer to them all, from the God people is the same (IMO). "Believe in the unbelievable", have faith, why?.... because it's true. Why?...It just is, and hey!... lots of people believe it. I need more than the "God is good, God is great .... just do it" answer that religion seems to offers.

Why do the "so many" believe it? IMO, many hope they will live forever... Since science can't promise them such a glorious "prize"...what the heck! I'm not trying to insult religious people, I'm just getting tired of "pussyfooting" around.
I will pass on the God threads at this point. Circular discussion does get stale.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Lizra
Good idea. Too much "God talk" for me...AIR! This thread, good and evil, and evolution taught in schools one, (plus a few others in back pages) .... and the answer to them all, from the God people is the same (IMO). 1) "Believe in the unbelievable", have faith, why?.... because it's true. Why?...It just is, and hey!... lots of people believe it. I need more than the "God is good, God is great .... just do it" answer that religion seems to offers.

2) Why do the "so many" believe it? IMO, many hope they will live forever... Since science can't promise them such a glorious "prize"...what the heck! I'm not trying to insult religious people, I'm just getting tired of "pussyfooting" around.
I will pass on the God threads at this point. Circular discussion does get stale.

1) Why is it true? Why is anything true?

2) Hmm...how about because they actually BELIEVE it?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
1) Thought if all you people can state your beliefs as fact, I must as well do it a little bit.
2) What if the society did not have anything against such an action?

1) No... you are not allowed. Only we people are allowed.
2) If the society did not have anything against such an action, then why make the laws. It is society that makes the laws.
Example, if the society believed that human sacrifice to a god would ensure a good year for the crops, then there would be no laws forbidding this. See?
The question was, do we feel breaking a law should be punished. I said yes, and stated my reasoning.

As for the laws created by a society, if a religion has power or a big influence on the society, then it stands to reason that the laws of the society would be influenced, if not based upon, that religion. The laws of that religion would be imposed upon every member of the society, regardless of whether they belong to that religion or not. For example, in some counties in Texas (not sure of other states) it is illegal to purchase or sell alcohol, to anyone. This is because of the Baptist sect of the Christian religion believes that alcohol is sinful.

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
1) Why is it true? Why is anything true?

2) Hmm...how about because they actually BELIEVE it?

That was very enlightening!

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
1) Why is it true? Why is anything true?

1) Because of evidence. Because it has been tested and the hypothesis has been proven or disproven. But then, that is the problem with a faith. It can not be proven or disproven. It only has followers who are convinced that it is true and follow it without question. Fortunately for me, I question. I question everything. I need to have evidence of what I believe to be true. I can infer many things that are not known, but the missing links must been surrounded by evidence for me to believe it to be true. I have no evidence that there is a god or that there is an afterlife, and therefore I do not believe.


hmmmm... lots of good people leaving this thread.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Ruinel
1) Because of evidence. Because it has been tested and the hypothesis has been proven or disproven. But then, that is the problem with a faith. It can not be proven or disproven. It only has followers who are convinced that it is true and follow it without question. Fortunately for me, I question. I question everything. I need to have evidence of what I believe to be true. I can infer many things that are not known, but the missing links must been surrounded by evidence for me to believe it to be true. I have no evidence that there is a god or that there is an afterlife, and therefore I do not believe.


2) hmmmm... lots of good people leaving this thread.

No, that does not make it true. Truth does not rely upon evidence. If it did, then as far as you were concerned, it would be virtually false that I am a guy, because you have as evidence: a) My word, and b) a picture which might not be me, and at any rate could be taken both ways.

2) Yeah, I know.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
No, that does not make it true. Truth does not rely upon evidence. If it did, then as far as you were concerned, it would be virtually false that I am a guy, because you have as evidence: a) My word, and b) a picture which might not be me, and at any rate could be taken both ways.

2) Yeah, I know.

1) It is not true that you are a guy. I am inferring that you are a guy based upon what evidence I have. You might be a very ...errr... masculine looking girl for all I know. So... from now on, I'll refer to you as a girl. Happy?

3) makes me sad too. This thread will soon be overrun by rabid Chirstian fanatics and I will stand alone with my sword in defense of the truth...... j/k!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Ah, but it is true that I am a guy.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Ah, but it is true that I am a guy.

oh... I'm sorry... I can not believe that. As you said, I have no proof other than your word. Maybe you are a girl. I don't know.
*thinks Gwai needs a makeover, bad*

[Eruviel Greenleaf]

Originally posted by Ruinel

3) makes me sad too. This thread will soon be overrun by rabid Chirstian fanatics and I will stand alone with my sword in defense of the truth...... j/k!

I'll stand by you! Even if I do take the occasional break to listen to them talk...um...

[Rían]

Originally posted by Ruinel
hmmmm... lots of good people leaving this thread.

who left besides Lizra? Does she have multiple personalities?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

HOBBIT, and almost Ru.

[Rían]

Whew! It's hot today ... too hot to think about hell!

That's interesting about your b/f, EG - I know many people think justice is v. important, but not many, I think, would word it so strongly - "the most important thing in the world" .... (still in musing mode....)

One quick note and then I need to pop off to my daughter's baseball practice-

*note to self - bring LLLAARRRGGGEEEE glass of iced tea!!*

(I'm really into this note to self thing now, ain't I?)

About the deterrant aspect of punishment - now one v. important thing is indeed to stop the behavior, but what about retribution (one def from my dictionary - "deserved punishment for evil done")? Should an offender be forced to have a somewhat unpleasant jail term for a terrible offence, or should we make him/her as comfy and happy as possible? Don't take into account the deterrent factor here (IOW, an extreme would be that jail life is so wonderful that people would murder just to get into jail!) - what do you think about retribution for a case like the pedophile we're discussing (and sadly, those people do exist )

Muse away! I'm off!

[Lief Erikson]

Okay, I'm back. At last . Two or three days again . . . not sure of the precise number (Stupid me), but again, lots of stuff has been written.

I think you responded to Ironparrot very well, RÃ*an, but then he sent several long posts and received no response. Therefore, he's waiting, I'd imagine. I can respond to you now, Ironparrot .

And thanks for reviewing my posts on page 45, RÃ*an .

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Does that make sense?
Did I misunderstand what you were saying? (that you can get to heaven by your own works w/o Christ, but it's a lot harder)

BTW, I totally agree that one can "get to heaven" w/o even having heard the name of Jesus - cf. Abraham. God would not be just if the way was only available to a subset of people, and the Bible states that God desires EVERYONE to accept the free gift of salvation, so it must be available to everyone. It's another sad fact, however, that not everyone WANTS to take it, because part of that means acknowledging that you, yourself are NOT God, and that you, yourself, cannot live a perfect life.

BTW 2 - Did you ever see my discussion on this thread about the "desert island" scenario? I talked a lot about that issue (people being saved before Christ died) in those posts.

BTW 3 - I think the verses you were looking for are in John 14.

You understood me correctly, but I agree with you, and have changed my mind, now. I was thinking of love talked about in 1 John in too broad a sense, I think. That's how I drew the conclusion that people could reach God through . . . ah, works, sort of. Except not really works, because I was thinking all love comes from God. Again, I defined love as all one thing, rather than realizing that there's human love, divine love, etc.

So, now one other Christian's post I'd like to respond to, before responding to Ironparrot.

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
I would have said that it doesn't impose restriction on human thought so much as human action. But I think Rian's was better.

I tend to disagree with you here, based upon the Bible and my own experience with God. There are restrictions he places upon our thinking. He says in the Bible "Make captive every thought and bring it to Christ" and that if someone looks at a married woman lustfully, he has committed adultery with her in his heart. What goes on in the spirit counts for a lot.


Now, to the breech .

[Lief Erikson]

Originally posted by Lizra
Good idea. Too much "God talk" for me...AIR! This thread, good and evil, and evolution taught in schools one, (plus a few others in back pages) .... and the answer to them all, from the God people is the same (IMO). "Believe in the unbelievable", have faith, why?.... because it's true. Why?...It just is, and hey!... lots of people believe it. I need more than the "God is good, God is great .... just do it" answer that religion seems to offers.

Why do the "so many" believe it? IMO, many hope they will live forever... Since science can't promise them such a glorious "prize"...what the heck! I'm not trying to insult religious people, I'm just getting tired of "pussyfooting" around.
I will pass on the God threads at this point. Circular discussion does get stale.

You've already heard my posts talking about spiritual experience, so I don't think I need to repeat them now. We're not asking you to just believe; I've already sent in a post detailing how I think faith fits in. You don't have to believe already before you receive.