05-28-2003, 11:14 PM | #1241 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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05-29-2003, 12:38 AM | #1242 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-29-2003 at 12:39 AM. |
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05-29-2003, 12:41 AM | #1243 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-29-2003, 12:58 AM | #1244 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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hmm, how about this - you're saying that repercussions are appropriate either solely or mainly (is that right?) to give the law "value" (or "teeth"?) so that it will be obeyed, is that right? Just musing here, because I wasn't thinking along those lines - how would you feel if said pedophile promised sincerely - and you KNEW he would keep that promise - to never do those awful things again, and then he was just let go w/o any penalty whatsoever .... would that be right, in your opinion? *will have to think about this angle some more....interesting.....* PS - what do you think of my "God created hell when he was in a bad mood" post? (if you've read it...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-29-2003 at 01:01 AM. |
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05-29-2003, 02:46 AM | #1245 | |||
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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But right, back to your question....heh... Quote:
Okay, I'd better start with my explanation of where I personally believe law comes from. Thank you, philosophy class. Yay. And I apologise in advance if my post doesn't make sense...I keep getting distracted by my new CDs (Sleater Kinney! woohoo! ) Law comes from our need to have order in society--this gets into social contract business and giving up certain rights from the state of nature to join society so we can live together relatively peaceably. That's Roussou (gods, I just spelled that wrong, didn't I?), Locke and Hobbes. Such laws are based around, generally, not harming one another, because there are certain rights that need to be protected if we are all to live together somewhat nicely. (these being, life liberty and property generally speaking.) Life and liberty can also be taken in a broader sense to mean freedom from harm. As in, not hurting one another--mentally, physically, emotionally, etc. This makes society work and no one gets hurt. Nice. I might also note that I have a personal belief that any harm done to anyone will come back at you threefold. Coney has mentioned this before. However, that is rather irrevelant, because this is about the justice system instituted by humans, not by...metaphysical...stuff...um...karma and whatnot. So, your scenario with the serial murderer/pedophile. The very idea of that makes my skin crawl, but for this reason: I cannot comprehend the kind of horror that would inflict. I don't want that happening to me, therefore I don't do it to others. Golden Rule of sorts. Nobody deserves that kind of abuse, and everyone deserves their life, once they are a semi-independant being (ok please no abortion debates here! ). So, yes, that person should be punished. However, human society has priority in the punishment as we have built a society on general principles of trying to make said society work. (NOT moral principles, in my view.) So that theoretical person should be punished by society for breaking the law which is there to protect the rights of citizens, thus making society work. I do not, however, believe that this person should be killed...rather, imprisoned and perhaps made to think on their actions. Something like that. I have my own personal beliefs in addition, but since those sorts of beliefs are, especially in our society where we have freedom of religion, our own and therefore the punishment should be left to society as a whole and not simply to God, karma, the devil, or whatever else may be out there. I hope I made some sense. I realise also that I repeat myself a lot, and I apologise. Quote:
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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05-29-2003, 07:35 AM | #1246 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Why do the "so many" believe it? IMO, many hope they will live forever... Since science can't promise them such a glorious "prize"...what the heck! I'm not trying to insult religious people, I'm just getting tired of "pussyfooting" around. I will pass on the God threads at this point. Circular discussion does get stale.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 05-29-2003 at 07:56 AM. |
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05-29-2003, 09:38 AM | #1247 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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2) Hmm...how about because they actually BELIEVE it?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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05-29-2003, 09:49 AM | #1248 | |
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2) If the society did not have anything against such an action, then why make the laws. It is society that makes the laws. Example, if the society believed that human sacrifice to a god would ensure a good year for the crops, then there would be no laws forbidding this. See? The question was, do we feel breaking a law should be punished. I said yes, and stated my reasoning. As for the laws created by a society, if a religion has power or a big influence on the society, then it stands to reason that the laws of the society would be influenced, if not based upon, that religion. The laws of that religion would be imposed upon every member of the society, regardless of whether they belong to that religion or not. For example, in some counties in Texas (not sure of other states) it is illegal to purchase or sell alcohol, to anyone. This is because of the Baptist sect of the Christian religion believes that alcohol is sinful. |
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05-29-2003, 09:55 AM | #1249 | |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
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05-29-2003, 10:03 AM | #1250 | |
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hmmmm... lots of good people leaving this thread. |
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05-29-2003, 10:35 AM | #1251 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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2) Yeah, I know.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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05-29-2003, 11:04 AM | #1252 | |
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3) makes me sad too. This thread will soon be overrun by rabid Chirstian fanatics and I will stand alone with my sword in defense of the truth...... j/k! |
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05-29-2003, 11:08 AM | #1253 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Ah, but it is true that I am a guy.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-29-2003, 11:12 AM | #1254 | |
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*thinks Gwai needs a makeover, bad* |
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05-29-2003, 12:36 PM | #1255 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
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Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
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05-29-2003, 06:09 PM | #1256 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-29-2003, 06:11 PM | #1257 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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HOBBIT, and almost Ru.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-29-2003, 06:52 PM | #1258 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Whew! It's hot today ... too hot to think about hell!
That's interesting about your b/f, EG - I know many people think justice is v. important, but not many, I think, would word it so strongly - "the most important thing in the world" .... (still in musing mode....) One quick note and then I need to pop off to my daughter's baseball practice- *note to self - bring LLLAARRRGGGEEEE glass of iced tea!!* (I'm really into this note to self thing now, ain't I?) About the deterrant aspect of punishment - now one v. important thing is indeed to stop the behavior, but what about retribution (one def from my dictionary - "deserved punishment for evil done")? Should an offender be forced to have a somewhat unpleasant jail term for a terrible offence, or should we make him/her as comfy and happy as possible? Don't take into account the deterrent factor here (IOW, an extreme would be that jail life is so wonderful that people would murder just to get into jail!) - what do you think about retribution for a case like the pedophile we're discussing (and sadly, those people do exist ) Muse away! I'm off!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-29-2003, 10:48 PM | #1259 | ||
Elf Lord
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Okay, I'm back. At last . Two or three days again . . . not sure of the precise number (Stupid me), but again, lots of stuff has been written.
I think you responded to Ironparrot very well, RÃ*an, but then he sent several long posts and received no response. Therefore, he's waiting, I'd imagine. I can respond to you now, Ironparrot . And thanks for reviewing my posts on page 45, RÃ*an . Quote:
So, now one other Christian's post I'd like to respond to, before responding to Ironparrot. Quote:
Now, to the breech . Last edited by Lief Erikson : 05-29-2003 at 10:53 PM. |
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05-29-2003, 10:52 PM | #1260 | |
Elf Lord
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