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Old 06-20-2003, 06:35 PM   #1221
HOBBIT
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Lizra is very correct. You are just going in circles Rian. You aren't posting anything new that we haven't already seen and can easily pick apart . You also are making very little sense - in almost everything you say.

There is no point in continuing this dicussion any further, i'd say.

I also completely agree that this thread is going nowhere. Rian seems to be dug in a little deeeper than GW though

I also notice that you distinctly left both JD and I out of your list of ppl who "offered polite, intelligent criticism and discussion on this subject," well EXCUSE ME. [jar jar]How Wuuude[/jar jar]

Its as if your mind is completely shut off to what we are saying. Have you even read the last several of my long posts? I make tons of great points and you completely ingnore them and continue on babbling. You really are making little sense - i hope you realize.

Of course you could just say that we are doing the same to you - and here we go in circles again.

How long can this topic go on like this?
EVEN LIZRA agrees

Thats three people in a row who have said that are making no sense - me, lizra, JD.
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Old 06-20-2003, 06:46 PM   #1222
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Actually the original topic of this thread was whether evolution should be taught in school. Which is easy enough to answer - YES. The question abotu creationism is all based on belief and is not science and actually isn't even part of the subject of this thread. So technically this thread is very off topic - not that I care though. We let it get off topic and it is an interesting discussion - but I haven't seen any evidence to support creationism other than belief and the "possibilty" that it might be true.
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Old 06-20-2003, 08:51 PM   #1223
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Now, people, I think you're being overly critical of Rian (bet that surprises you ). Firstly, she is a mother of several (three, I believe) children, and a wife. This is a full-time job. You can't expect her to be on here as much as losers like me who don't have anything better to do. Though of course, I have been busy lately with moving, but other than that. Secondly, she has a different style of posting and "debate" than most of us. She tends to build up, to lead to something, to help others to see her point of view, whether or not they agree with it. Is this so wrong?
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:29 PM   #1224
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Quote:
Rian: And I think your last sentence applies more to evolutionism than creationism - punctuated equilibrium, IMO, relies on "missing information", and about the Paluxy(sp) footprints - one of the most incredibly telling bits of info I found on a internet search I did on the subject was an evolutionist saying something like "Since we KNOW that humans didn't co-exist with dinosaurs, THEREFORE these CANNOT be human footprints". If THAT isn't "retreating from new discoveries", I don't know what is. Would you agree? It is entirely irrelevant whether or not they were found to be valid! The point is that he was unwilling to consider their validity ONLY because the current theory said it wasn't possible!!
I believe I've already posted that the Paluxy footprints were thoroughly examined and the evidence was either faked or misinterpreted. No study has found evidence of human footprints with dinosaur footprints. I assume these studies were done with integrity.

We have much more to talk about in this thread. Although I believe the orginal question has been answered (anyone who believes evolution shouldn't be taught in schools is living in the dark ages), we still have much more evidence for creation to get through. There's the flood, the second law of thermodynamics, young Earth...

Have a nice holiday, Rian. Hope there's not too many pages to read when you return.
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Old 06-21-2003, 01:56 AM   #1225
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Don't forget the first law of therm. as well. As well as a few other arguments.

Its a noble effort Rian and I like you as a person.

But lets just face it guys, we've heard all the arguments for Creation and they don't make sense. I've done my own research on the matter and completely read through the old "Creation Science" topic. That thing is a douzy and believe me when I say that all the evidence for creation and more is in that topic.

As for the footprints thing, well by the end of the old topic everyone was in agreement that they were false - even the main person for creation (quickbeam, the guy who started the topic). It was also shown well that a great deal of creationists even view these as false. So rian, that gives you the red light to actually consider it j/k

I encourage everyone to look at this site on the matter if they care about this issue:

http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/paluxy.htm - this site is pretty interesting

that was a very good link originally posted by Juntel, a real genius - too bad he left the moot He was the main person refuting the "evidence" for creation and was not completely for evolution.
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Old 06-21-2003, 02:25 AM   #1226
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Well I figured I'd post the link for the thread from archives that Hobbit was referring to...
Creation science
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Old 06-21-2003, 03:05 AM   #1227
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Quote:
Originally posted by HOBBIT
I also notice that you distinctly left both JD and I out of your list of ppl who "offered polite, intelligent criticism and discussion on this subject," well EXCUSE ME. [jar jar]How Wuuude[/jar jar]
*sigh*

I just finished packing and popped on and saw your post, Hobbit.

I'll repeat what I said: "Cirdan, GrayMouser, Earniel, Cass and Sheeana (just to name a few off the top of my head - there are others)...."

I didn't have time to go back and pick out EVERYONE - I was rather rushed and behind in packing (try packing camping food for 20!) - that's why I said "off the top of my head" AND "there are others". Please don't take offense, there was none meant.

And I haven't ignored your posts, Hobbit - if you notice, I"m going sequentially, post by post, and treating each one seriously and thoughtfully and with respect. And that takes a long time. And I've said whenever I agree with some info that doesn't jive with creationism, either, like the layering of the fossil record.

Thanks v. much for your defense of me, Gwai. That was very nice, and it made me feel better. Perhaps it's time to stop if some permanent hard feelings are developing, altho I see that at least several of you say you still like me as a person...

Well why don't you guys all post whether you want to continue or not. As I said, I really only did one post on creationism evidence -the rest has been responses and defences and things like that. I"ll check the thread when I get back. I'd like to share more, but am willing to stop. What do the other posters here think?

I'm sad

I hope our trip goes well, I'm a little apprehensive - thanks for the wishes, Cass, Lizra and Eärniel (and if I missed anyone, sorry- and thanks.) I'll think of you guys when I'm at the Grand Canyon.
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Old 06-21-2003, 03:14 AM   #1228
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Oh, Rian, don't be sad. That makes me sad.

I still think we should continue this discussion. I think it's one of the best in GM. I do feel strongly about this topic, as do many others on both sides of the debate. Perhaps when we have exhausted this discussion we will have to agree to disagree, because, despite the evidence, I don't think anybody's going to change their minds. But it's fun learning new stuff, and this discussion has made me at least consider the evidence for creation.
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Old 06-21-2003, 08:07 AM   #1229
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ah, don't stop before you've actually posted any evidence
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Old 06-21-2003, 09:27 AM   #1230
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I guess I've used all my "political correctness" up! Sorry, but that's the way I feel at this point in time, about this subject! I've mentioned this before on Entmoot, but one of my dad's favorite lines, repeated daily was ..."Cut the crap!" I've lightened it up to "Be real", and I just don't think the " faith" people are (being real) IMO. I still think the whole creation defense is a "grasping at straws" mindset. I'll check out HOBBITS link to the past disscussion. Sounds like a good one!
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Old 06-21-2003, 02:02 PM   #1231
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Quote:
Originally posted by RÃ*an
And here's comments on the rest of Cirdan's post...


But my MAIN objection (that I haven't even covered here yet in any detail) is the HUGE improbability of "beneficial mutations" that ADD genetic info (it's NEVER been observed), which the whole macro-evolution scheme depends on.
It has been observed- in fact all varieties of plants and animals used by humans derive from exactly that process. Lately , with Genetic Modification, we've been able to skip the stage of waiting for mutations and go straight to the source.

BTW, micro-evolution depends on exactly the same process. Problem for creationists who accept micro-evolution but not "macro-evolution": whati s the mechanism which prevents macro-evolution from occurring?

Quote:
.And even GIVEN some beneficial mutations, your def. of natural selection means that they were more successful, and they had to at least be around enough to breed and make more "new" critters, which then had to have MORE beneficial mutations, etc. It's accumulated beneficial changes.

Exactly. That's a very succinct definition of Evolution by Natural Selection
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Old 06-21-2003, 02:19 PM   #1232
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And Rian, if you're positing a YEC scenario, could you please give a date for what you believe the age of the Earth to be.

I know some YECs push it as far back as 10,000 years (8,000 BC)
but most , including AnswersinGenesis accept approx. the 6,000 year-old-model.

Since you discount the estimates of the standard geological model, (4.5 Billion years) what's a rough (plus or minus 10 per cent ) figure?
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Old 06-21-2003, 02:36 PM   #1233
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
1) The most accurate of it's time? Does Truth then change and switch back and forth through time?
2) I don't know. Those teachers are majorly screwed up!

Reverse order reply;

2) If they're anything like the ones that tried to get me to appreciate poetry, you're absolutely right. Took me years to recover. Which is why schools should teach sex education- they'll make it so boring that abstinence will become hugely popular.

1) Scientific Truth? Of Course! That's the difference- science doesn't claim to know the the capital-T Truth. It can only judge on the best evidence presented at the time.

Anything it claims is tentative, and subject to revision, unlike the Truth provided by Revelation.
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Old 07-01-2003, 08:34 PM   #1234
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Hi guys - I'm baaaaaack! I thought of you all when I was at the Grand Cyn and saw fossils of trilobites! Such complex critters, those trilobites!

Quote:
Originally posted by cassiopeia
Oh, Rian, don't be sad. That makes me sad.

I still think we should continue this discussion. I think it's one of the best in GM. I do feel strongly about this topic, as do many others on both sides of the debate. Perhaps when we have exhausted this discussion we will have to agree to disagree, because, despite the evidence, I don't think anybody's going to change their minds. But it's fun learning new stuff, and this discussion has made me at least consider the evidence for creation.
Cass - Thanks for both the empathy and the openness to consider the evidence I present. I'm glad you find it interesting; I know I do, too. I enjoy vigorous, logical discussion, but friendship is even more important

Hobbit - ok, I'll keep going

Lizra - Since I don't consider this "crap", I won't "cut it"! And it's MY opinion that evolutionists are "grasping at straws" in many areas

GrayMouser - (drat! I keep spelling it "grey" - is that an American vs. British thing?) The problem I see with macro ev. vs. micro ev. is HUGE - it's beneficial mutations causing increase of information - the so-called "fish to philosophers" thing. IOW, grossly (in the scientific sense of the word) improper extrapolation. Change has boundaries - when I first started typing, it was about 10 wpm; now I type at about 90 wpm (fast little sucker, ain't I?). Does that mean in another 20 years I'll type at 200 wpm, and in another 20 years I'll type at 400 wpm? No. I think there are boundaries to change.

IMO, saying macro is just "more" micro is like saying: "I can observe my hair changing from brown to gray (micro evolution), and look, I can even use hair coloring stuff to change it to magenta! (micro evolution with scientific intervention)- so therefore I think given lots of time, my hair will change into arms (macro evolution)." Iimproper extrapolation, because arms represent a gain in information, not just a change of already-present features or a mutation keeping things on the same level (ie, hair is still hair).

Quote:
by GrayMouser
BTW, micro-evolution depends on exactly the same process. Problem for creationists who accept micro-evolution but not "macro-evolution": whati s the mechanism which prevents macro-evolution from occurring?
Absolutely NOT the same process, and no problem for creationists (see above).

Quote:
by GrayMouser
Exactly. That's a very succinct definition of Evolution by Natural Selection
Yes, isn't it And that's why it's so absolutely improbable statistically. But more on that later.

Also, if you wouldn't mind terribly, I think I'll pass on the age thing for now, because it's one of the minor points to me, and I have enough to keep me busy discussing the major points!
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Old 07-01-2003, 08:46 PM   #1235
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note to self = comment on eye program
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Old 07-01-2003, 11:43 PM   #1236
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I was thinking about this thread over vacation, and I think because of the way I post (long! - as Gwai mentioned ) that it might be best if I start a new thread after all... so I think I'll start up a thread something along the lines of "Evidence for Creationism" in a few days, after we finish up here (because I'm bringing up one more topic first). I hope the people that are interested will transfer over to the new thread (unless you think we should just keep it here - what do you guys think? esp. Cass, who has said she would like to continue) We could transfer over pending questions and keep going. Opinions? Hobbit, JD, GrayMouser, Cirdan, etc. (I know Lizra wouldn't like it - but I still like her!)

Anyway, I thought I would wrap up here (if we DO start the new thread) by returning to the main topic - "should evolution be taught in schools?" I would answer yes, I think it should, but it is extremely important, when teaching it, to clear up some of the misconceptions floating around, in the name of maintaining scientific integrity, which any good scientist would agree is very important.

So I wanted to bring up 2 topics (possibly 3) - Kettlewell's Peppered Moths experiment, Haeckel's Embryo drawings, and possibly also the Miller-Urey experiment, because I think there's some SERIOUS integrity issues involved, especially in the first 2.
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Old 07-01-2003, 11:54 PM   #1237
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It would probably be best if we made a new thread, since we are OT with the original question. I think nearly everybody answered 'yes' to that question.
The thing is, lots of good points have already been made in this thread. But I'll go to the new thread if it's created.
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Old 07-02-2003, 12:03 AM   #1238
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A new thread would be best. Lets discuss the issues to death again.
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Old 07-02-2003, 12:58 AM   #1239
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OK, Cass and Hobbit - new thread it is! (and you don't HAVE to come, Hobbit, if it bores you to death )

But first - the Peppered moths!

(I wish it wasn't summer, because we don't have as good access to school textbooks now, but at least we can check Eärniel's book, if it doesn't mind )

The peppered moths experiment showed up in both the original section of this thread, and then the new start-up of this thread. One of my BIG objections is when people say that the peppered moths' change from mostly white to mostly black in Kettlewell's experiment PROVES evolution. I think that misconception was dealt with very well here, and I think the people that brought up the moths eventually saw that all it showed was a SELECTION between ALREADY EXISTING moth colorations. This is NOT "proving" evolution. It's demonstrating natural selection on PRE-EXISTING moth types. Neither creationists nor evolutionists have any problem with this.

Now what I DO have a problem with (once the above-mentioned misconception has been cleared up) is that there are some serious integrity issues involved in that experiment, and in the textbooks, lectures, etc. that use that experiment as an example - because the photographs commonly used to illustrate the experiment are -- STAGED/FAKED! And scientists and textbook writers have known about it for years, but have not corrected it. The pictures are either of moths that have been PLACED on the tree trunks (which is NOT their natural resting place!, and since they are noctural, they stay where they're put during the day); or even worse, sometimes the pictures have been of DEAD moths GLUED onto tree trunks.

Now how many people have seen those moth-on-tree-trunk pictures in their textbooks? I know that I certainly have.
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Old 07-02-2003, 01:48 AM   #1240
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I honestly don't know what you are talking about, I have never seen any moth pictures. Maybe I'll look it up later to see what you are talking about.

And because some moth pictures are fact that means that it is less likely for evolution to exist? How so? It seems to me what you are getting at is a small thing (correct me if I am wrong). There are many many more 'proofs' for evolution.

And even if some moth pictures were faked, surely not every single picture of moths to prove evolution were faked. But I really have no idea what you are refering to. Do you have any links or anything to show what you are talking about and WHY you think they were all faked?

Probably Cass can answer that better.
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