05-28-2003, 05:48 PM | #1221 | ||||
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According to the Catholic Church (pre-1960), the heavenly bodies revolved around the Earth. Thankfully, they lifted their ban on Galileo, or their credibility really would be shot. Quote:
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05-28-2003, 05:48 PM | #1222 | ||||
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If you believe that God exists and that living a certain way will get you to heaven - then God exists and you'll go to heaven. But let the poor little Greek boy who supplicated to Athena live his own afterlife, without shoving him into that Hell of yours. Let the Buddhists be reincarnated as much as they want until they reach Nirvana. Let the Jedi try to become one with the Force. And let the atheists reject all of these. If you believe it, it's true - to you. That does not make it universal. Which is why society should be governed by the lowest common denominator: the lack of belief. In essence, a tolerant secular civilization. Quote:
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In the present day, we are restricted from killing people because we are guided by the principle of human rights, namely, the right to life. And it's a human concept that we should live and let live, not a universally applicable truth (contrary to what Kant may claim). We agree to live by it due to our relationship to the state. I choose not to kill people, not because the Bible says I'll go to Hell, but because I have a responsibility to maintain my end of the social contract. I am not in any way religious, though I derive a personal standard of morality from our societal framework. What is most important is that I do not presume my moral standards to be the same as anybody else's - nor do they need to be. Morals govern individuals. Laws govern societies. You can derive your morals from your religion, and I have no problem with that; just don't pretend they govern me too. But anyway, I'm ranting more about the church-state relationship now than I am about religion itself. So I'll stop there before I really go off on a tangent. Quote:
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05-28-2003, 05:49 PM | #1223 | |
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05-28-2003, 05:51 PM | #1224 | |
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 05-28-2003 at 06:20 PM. |
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05-28-2003, 06:15 PM | #1225 | |
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I'd also nitpick about your use of "wrongdoer" here, though I know you were referring to criminality, not morality. As I've stated before, criminal justice and law are not judgments of moral rights and wrongs, nor should they be. "Legal vs. illegal" is the question at hand in codified law, whilst "right vs. wrong" is a question of morality in divine law. I argue that we are (and should be) governed by the former, and self-govern with the guidance of the latter (should we choose to do so). Sophocles disagrees. Screw him.
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05-28-2003, 06:21 PM | #1226 |
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Where'd you get "wrongdoer" from?
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05-28-2003, 07:09 PM | #1227 |
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You dastardly revisionist, you.
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05-28-2003, 08:01 PM | #1228 |
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damn, IP! You are long winded! *rubs eyes* Glad you are on MY side.
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05-28-2003, 08:07 PM | #1229 | |||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-28-2003 at 08:09 PM. |
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05-28-2003, 08:10 PM | #1230 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-28-2003, 08:57 PM | #1231 | |
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OK, the next thing I'd like to talk about is justice. I think that lots of people think (wrongly) of the justice of God, like it's vindictive - like "I"ll get them, they broke my pretty laws!". Or like you said, the "subjugation of the masses" thing - (that one is pretty funny to picture! Reminds me of how I send my kids to their rooms sometimes.... ) - "Dang, I'm losing control of those wild people, oh hell, I'll send 'em all to .. um, hell, and let the nice ones play in heaven with Me!" But is there a non-vindictive, or "right" way, for justice to occur? I'd like to throw it back to you and see what you think about this - to use a rather blatant example, do you think a pedophile/murderer that kidnaps children and then rapes and tortures them then kills them should be left unpunished? If so, why? If not, why not? *note to self - deal with "jealous" thing later ... if I remember after discussing hell and Bible ....*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-28-2003, 09:01 PM | #1232 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-28-2003 at 09:06 PM. |
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05-28-2003, 09:05 PM | #1233 | |
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I like what you say in the rest of your post, altho I would add that the law is GOOD - it's not just some random stuff that God decided to make a law about and then blast people if they didn't obey it. But actually that is the next point I'm going to discuss after justice - the "natural" (or "real") order.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-28-2003, 09:23 PM | #1234 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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PS - re the justice thing -
I'm NOT going the "and so it's a just action for God to send the sucker to hell!" route with this, BTW....
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-29-2003 at 12:42 AM. |
05-28-2003, 09:32 PM | #1235 | |
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05-28-2003, 09:40 PM | #1236 |
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It does give people that, today. As for the rest, Christianity does not "lose" it, simply because it is true.
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05-28-2003, 10:06 PM | #1237 | |||
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If a society makes laws such as, citizens will not take the life of another unless in self defense, then that society must also have repercussions if that law is broken. Without a negative consequence to breaking the law, the law would have no value and no one would obey it. |
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05-28-2003, 10:10 PM | #1238 | |
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2) What if the society did not have anything against such an action?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 05-28-2003 at 10:16 PM. |
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05-28-2003, 10:15 PM | #1239 |
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Stick your head in the sand! Go ahead! Time to "agree to disagree" with another one! Brick walls.
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05-28-2003, 10:17 PM | #1240 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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What, you don't think I have the right to state my beliefs as fact, as you do with yours?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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