05-02-2004, 03:18 AM | #1221 |
Elf Lord
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I occasionally come across articles from "First Things"; well-written, serious, and informative.
Though I usually disagree with their positions Edit: not always; I strongly support their crusade against postmodernism, deconstructionism, and cultural relativism.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 05-02-2004 at 03:21 AM. |
05-23-2004, 05:52 PM | #1222 | |||
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EDIT: I noticed I didn't completely answer the questions, so I'm fleshing out my answers. Onwards... 1. I do indeed believe my beliefs are true. Truth is a complex thing, which is why I have so much difficulty explaining my worldview. I used the alternate dimension analogy to explain what I mean about everything being possible, and existing. However, I feel that the universe is more complex than that, much more than I can begin to comprehend or imagine. Considering that we don't even have the ability to physically leave our own solar system, I think that there is more than enough room for my worldview in this wide universe. Consider this as well. Humans cannot create something from nothing. If we make fire, the fuel had already been provided to us. If we gain knowledge, we are building on what we already know. Where did the seeds of our knowledge come from? They came from the Creator. If we cannot create something from nothing, then our thoughts must already exist. I also believe in rarer cases, the Creator is using our thoughts to create something knew. Maybe that's part of why we were created in the first place, as instruments of the Creator. Much beauty has been brought to the world because of humanity's belief in a higher power. (Obviously, there are individuals who do not believe in a higher power, but I'm referring here to whole societies.) If I could see everything, then I (for the sake of argument) would have an understanding (or mental capacity) of God. I could then see that my limited human view of the universe was approaching the truth. 2. I got ahead of myself in part 1 there. I would tell someone the above ^ if I attempted to explain my worldview to them. (Promptly causing them to become confused and disoriented. ) I would say to them, why does anyone hold their personal beliefs? Because they feel right? Because that is how they love God? Because their beliefs allow them to understand the world around them? That is why I hold my own beliefs as well. And who's to say a worldview is absolutely true, or absolutely wrong? I forget what we had already agreed about truth, but I thought I'd add this: A Truth: I am a woman. It is true that I am a woman. If you were to say this, you would not be incorrect. However, gender is a social construct, therefore, that fact that I'm a woman is not an absolute truth. An Absolute Truth: Even attempting to think of an Absolute Truth makes my brain hurt. I don't think any human being is qualified to recognize an absolute truth, though this belief is part of my worldview, and not necessarily absolutely true. An Absolute Truth is one that is without one single shred of doubt, correct. I was going to use God exists as an absolute truth, but I can't because I am incapable of recognizing an absolute truth. Therefore, if it is absolutely true, I would not know this, and cannot say so. The simple fact that there are people who do not believe that God exists supplies the tiny shred of doubt that ensures that this is not an absolute truth. It would take a being that could see more of the Universe than us meager humans to recognize whether or not this was in fact an Absolute Truth. 3. As I do think my beliefs are true, question answered. However, one could bring up such ideas if they were not true, for the sake of discussion and knowledge. (That's why I brought them up anyway actually, but I do believe them. I am not playing the devil's advocate here, but rather, expressing my worldview for the purpose of discussion and understanding.) I'm going to PM you to make sure you see that I've finally responded. Though this discussion has turned into one between Rian and I (as has happened many a time in this thread ), others have participated in the past, and everyone is welcome to discuss this subject if interested. Just so you know we're not being exclusive here. Thread hijakers? Us? *French accent* Nevair! Cheers, Nurv
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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05-25-2004, 05:01 PM | #1223 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Rats! No time to answer! Dratted school stuff!
*bumps thread up to remind herself to answer*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
05-27-2004, 02:38 PM | #1224 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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A coupla quick thoughts on your post, then gtg and prob. can't get back to the Moot until next week
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Cheers back to you Have a nice weekend!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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05-29-2004, 04:47 PM | #1225 | |||
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I will say that I agree with you about your definition of truth. It is also worth pointing out that what you described as gender is in fact sex. There are two human sexes that are scientifically testable. Gender remains a social construct. Most societies use the idea of one gender for each scientific sex. But there are cultures who have more than two genders (I believe some Coast Sailish people [SW British Columbia] are two-spirited, but I don't have my old anthropology notes.) Anyway, that's not too important, but it's an interesting side track. Cheers, Nurv
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 05-29-2004 at 04:57 PM. |
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06-06-2004, 08:29 PM | #1226 |
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Not knowing if this has been discussed prior to my arrival at the Moot...
What are y'all's views on Holy Communion (Christian, and...I suppose non-Christian's too would have opinions on this topic ) I, for one, am a consubstantiationist (Christ is present in, with, and under the elements).
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
06-07-2004, 10:58 AM | #1227 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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I believe in transubstantiaion...the body anmd blood are transformed into Christ (body, soul, divinity) but still retain the properties of bread and wine. (if you can't guess, I'm Catholic ) |
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06-07-2004, 03:28 PM | #1228 | |
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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06-16-2004, 07:43 PM | #1229 | ||
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My veiews on Communion... I've never really thought about it before, so very interesting question.
I love communion, and it was an important part of the service for me (and everyone) in the church where I grew up. (I'm Anglican.) As a side note, I haven't really gone to church very much at all since I moved away from my home city, but I have very fond memories of it. At our church anyone is welcome to receive communion. You don't have to even be baptised or regularly attend the church. Also, you're not required to take communion if you don't want to, and some people don't. Since we don't have First Communion, children who want to can also have communion. (First Communion is a Catholic practice, but a lot of Anglican churches do it to, I'm pretty sure. Catholicism and Anglicanism have quite a bit in common overall.) We always have great instrumental music during communion, and music is my favourite part of the service. For Anglicans, the wine and the bread are symbols of the blood and the body of Christ. One of the important differences with Catholicism is that in the Catholic communion, it is the body and the blood of Christ. I didn't actually intend to get into a comparison of the two denominations (is that the right word?), but as they do have a lot in common, it just seemed appropriate. That would be my rambling view on communion. Anyway, for me Communion is a very spiritual event (for lack of a better word). I would want absolutely anyone who wished to take part in this wonderful sense of community with God and the other people at Communion. It, along with music and Sunday school, are my favourite parts of church. I really meant to start reading the Bible this summer, but I still haven't even obtained a copy of it yet. I thought I'd have a lot of free time - hah. Have any of you guys read the Bible?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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06-16-2004, 08:11 PM | #1230 |
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Our Lutheran synod (ELCA) welcomes any baptized member of the faith (Christianity) to take communion with us. Some, such as the Wisconsin Synod, only allow members of the Wisconsin Synod to communion with them.
On another note, what are the opinions on "contemporay" music in religious services versus "traditional"?
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
06-17-2004, 04:58 AM | #1231 |
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Well Merc, the Vatican made moves to ban the use of the guitar in Church services. While I welcome the intention, it's an amazing way to aleinate people...
I like traditional music, but more importantly, I like the traditional style. There are many fine hymns which aren't traditional in terms of timeframe but are beautiful and appropriate. On the other hand there is a lot of cringeworthy rubbish... stuff I wouldn't want to dedicate to God as the best man can do in praise... Nurv, I haven't propery read the Bible, but I did scan a lot of it for Bible references for my GCSE religious studies exam...
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
06-17-2004, 05:25 AM | #1232 | |
Lady of Letters
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Sometimes churches don't get much of a choice between traditional and modern music, because they're limited in the number of instruments available - that's how it is at my church. Personally I prefer traditional hymns, but "Immortal, Invisible, God only wise", much as I love it, doesn't really work on guitar Some modern hymns, as Janny says, fail quite spectatularly in their attempts to be meaningful, but others are very good. Depends what helps each individual, really.
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And all the time the waves, the waves, the waves Chase, intersect and flatten on the sand As they have done for centuries, as they will For centuries to come, when not a soul Is left to picnic on the blazing rocks, When England is not England, when mankind Has blown himself to pieces. Still the sea, Consolingly disastrous, will return While the strange starfish, hugely magnified, Waits in the jewelled basin of a pool. |
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06-17-2004, 09:48 AM | #1233 |
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It seems like the "contemporary" stuff turns the worship service into something totally about your personal/emotional experience rather than focusing on God. And also, many of the "contemporary" hymns have no depth to them. Its just "I love you Jesus" "You saved my soul" repeated a thousand times. Moreover, there is a reason why for hundreds of years people sang hymns in religious services. The common layperson withouth any musical knowledge/instruction can handle them. They are built with simple chord changes on almost every beat. So many contemporary songs are like the pop songs-- it takes so long to change chords, so to make up for that lack of ...anything...they have to have a complicated melody that an average person can't just pick up and sing. As a result, they use only a few songs constantly because it takes so long for people to learn them.
Grr. At least our church has 2 traditional services (and 1 contemporary). P.S. We are in a Lutheran church, so communion is extremely important. At first, the contemporary folks wanted to not have communion every week! The heresy! Our pastor has done all he can to tone it down, but still...
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
06-17-2004, 10:05 AM | #1234 |
The Blobbit
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A personal favourite of mine to loathe is 'We are the Easter people (allelujah is our song)' This, with its annoying melody and happy clappy rhythm, is bad enough but it is not only sung at Easter...
I don't understand how anyone could possible want to remove the communion from a mass! You use 'the heresy' almost ironically, but I suspect you're getting quite close to it... You sound very informed about church music, have you studied it?
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
06-17-2004, 10:07 AM | #1235 | |
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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06-17-2004, 10:25 AM | #1236 | |
mystical divinity of Unashamed Felinity
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But I grew up in a very traditional Lutheran atmosphere and love the traditional hymns and organ music. It is as much an enhancement to worship and a personal connection to God as prayer to me. Communion is also an important part of worship. The congregation I grew up in was huge (it had three services each Sunday as well as Sunday School and a Lutheran elementary school). Communion was not served at every service because of the time element (the 8:30 service could run into the 9:45 service could run into the 11:00 service), though communion was offered at at least one service each week (usually the 11:00). I've found that to be the case in most congregations I've been in since then -- communion is not offered at every service due to time constraints. I'm surprised your church has a contemporary service. Most Lutheran churches are reluctant to give an entire service over to the "new" stuff.
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"Never try to out-stubborn a cat!" -- R. Heinlein ~~~~~~~~~ "But I don't want to be among mad people, " Alice remarked. "Oh, but you can't help that," said the Cat; "We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad." "How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice. "You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here." ~~ Lewis Carroll ~~~~~~~~~~~ Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana... |
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06-17-2004, 10:30 AM | #1237 | ||
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I'm taking the liberty to quote an email we received from one of our good friends. Quote:
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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06-17-2004, 10:52 AM | #1238 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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as far as I know that only denominations allowed to take the Eucharist (Communion) in the Catholic Church are Catholics (both Roman and Eastern Rites) who are in the grace of God (i.e. no sin on their soul....confessed to God and asked to be forgiven) and I'm pretty sure the Orthodox are allowed to take Communion at our Churches and vice versa b/c we both recognized each others 7 sacraments as valid and both confess the same belifs about the Eucharist and Transubstantiation. as far as contemprary music goes...well what can I say...I don't relaly like it. I prefer the organ and piano and choir to drums and guitars...although a guitar by itself is ok...it's the drums and stuff that I hate! |
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06-17-2004, 03:40 PM | #1239 |
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"Contemporary worship" is turning a God-focused religious service into entertainment. The reason it exists is because our entire culture is based on entertainment and emotional response. It's all they see, so it's all they want.
The differences...I'll get back on that one.
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
06-17-2004, 03:50 PM | #1240 |
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If you want to read something for awhile, here is a nice article published in "First Things" (I mentioned that journal earlier) about Lutherans, which includes a history, what the different organizations/synods are, their differences of opinion, etc.
"The Lutheran Difference"
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Mike nodded. A sombre nod. The nod Napoleon might have given if somebody had met him in 1812 and said, "So, you're back from Moscow, eh?". Interested in C.S. Lewis? Visit the forum dedicated to one of Tolkien's greatest contemporaries. |
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