![]() |
![]() |
#1221 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
Lizra is very correct. You are just going in circles Rian. You aren't posting anything new that we haven't already seen and can easily pick apart
![]() There is no point in continuing this dicussion any further, i'd say. I also completely agree that this thread is going nowhere. Rian seems to be dug in a little deeeper than GW though ![]() I also notice that you distinctly left both JD and I out of your list of ppl who "offered polite, intelligent criticism and discussion on this subject," well EXCUSE ME. [jar jar]How Wuuude[/jar jar] Its as if your mind is completely shut off to what we are saying. Have you even read the last several of my long posts? I make tons of great points and you completely ingnore them and continue on babbling. You really are making little sense - i hope you realize. Of course you could just say that we are doing the same to you - and here we go in circles again. How long can this topic go on like this? EVEN LIZRA agrees ![]() Thats three people in a row who have said that are making no sense - me, lizra, JD.
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1222 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Actually the original topic of this thread was whether evolution should be taught in school. Which is easy enough to answer - YES. The question abotu creationism is all based on belief and is not science and actually isn't even part of the subject of this thread. So technically this thread is very off topic - not that I care though. We let it get off topic and it is an interesting discussion - but I haven't seen any evidence to support creationism other than belief and the "possibilty" that it might be true.
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1223 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Now, people, I think you're being overly critical of Rian (bet that surprises you
![]() ![]() ![]()
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1224 | |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
Quote:
We have much more to talk about in this thread. Although I believe the orginal question has been answered (anyone who believes evolution shouldn't be taught in schools is living in the dark ages), we still have much more evidence for creation to get through. There's the flood, the second law of thermodynamics, young Earth... ![]() Have a nice holiday, Rian. Hope there's not too many pages to read when you return. ![]()
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1225 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
Don't forget the first law of therm. as well. As well as a few other arguments.
Its a noble effort Rian and I like you as a person. But lets just face it guys, we've heard all the arguments for Creation and they don't make sense. I've done my own research on the matter and completely read through the old "Creation Science" topic. That thing is a douzy and believe me when I say that all the evidence for creation and more is in that topic. As for the footprints thing, well by the end of the old topic everyone was in agreement that they were false - even the main person for creation (quickbeam, the guy who started the topic). It was also shown well that a great deal of creationists even view these as false. So rian, that gives you the red light to actually consider it ![]() I encourage everyone to look at this site on the matter if they care about this issue: http://members.aol.com/Paluxy2/paluxy.htm - this site is pretty interesting that was a very good link originally posted by Juntel, a real genius - too bad he left the moot ![]()
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1226 |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
|
Well I figured I'd post the link for the thread from archives that Hobbit was referring to...
Creation science
__________________
Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 06-21-2003 at 02:26 AM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1227 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
I just finished packing and popped on and saw your post, Hobbit. I'll repeat what I said: "Cirdan, GrayMouser, Earniel, Cass and Sheeana (just to name a few off the top of my head - there are others)...." I didn't have time to go back and pick out EVERYONE - I was rather rushed and behind in packing (try packing camping food for 20!) - that's why I said "off the top of my head" AND "there are others". Please don't take offense, there was none meant. ![]() And I haven't ignored your posts, Hobbit - if you notice, I"m going sequentially, post by post, and treating each one seriously and thoughtfully and with respect. And that takes a long time. And I've said whenever I agree with some info that doesn't jive with creationism, either, like the layering of the fossil record. Thanks v. much for your defense of me, Gwai. That was very nice, and it made me feel better. Perhaps it's time to stop if some permanent hard feelings are developing, altho I see that at least several of you say you still like me as a person... Well why don't you guys all post whether you want to continue or not. As I said, I really only did one post on creationism evidence -the rest has been responses and defences and things like that. I"ll check the thread when I get back. I'd like to share more, but am willing to stop. What do the other posters here think? I'm sad ![]() I hope our trip goes well, I'm a little apprehensive - thanks for the wishes, Cass, Lizra and Eärniel (and if I missed anyone, sorry- and thanks.) I'll think of you guys when I'm at the Grand Canyon.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 06-21-2003 at 03:07 AM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1228 |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
Oh, Rian, don't be sad. That makes me sad.
![]() I still think we should continue this discussion. I think it's one of the best in GM. I do feel strongly about this topic, as do many others on both sides of the debate. Perhaps when we have exhausted this discussion we will have to agree to disagree, because, despite the evidence, I don't think anybody's going to change their minds. But it's fun learning new stuff, and this discussion has made me at least consider the evidence for creation.
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1229 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
ah, don't stop before you've actually posted any evidence
![]()
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1230 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
|
I guess I've used all my "political correctness" up! Sorry, but that's the way I feel at this point in time, about this subject!
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1231 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
BTW, micro-evolution depends on exactly the same process. Problem for creationists who accept micro-evolution but not "macro-evolution": whati s the mechanism which prevents macro-evolution from occurring? Quote:
Exactly. That's a very succinct definition of Evolution by Natural Selection
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1232 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
And Rian, if you're positing a YEC scenario, could you please give a date for what you believe the age of the Earth to be.
I know some YECs push it as far back as 10,000 years (8,000 BC) but most , including AnswersinGenesis accept approx. the 6,000 year-old-model. Since you discount the estimates of the standard geological model, (4.5 Billion years) what's a rough (plus or minus 10 per cent ) figure?
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 06-21-2003 at 02:26 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1233 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ilha Formosa
Posts: 2,068
|
Quote:
2) If they're anything like the ones that tried to get me to appreciate poetry, you're absolutely right. Took me years to recover. Which is why schools should teach sex education- they'll make it so boring that abstinence will become hugely popular. 1) Scientific Truth? Of Course! That's the difference- science doesn't claim to know the the capital-T Truth. It can only judge on the best evidence presented at the time. Anything it claims is tentative, and subject to revision, unlike the Truth provided by Revelation.
__________________
Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1234 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Hi guys - I'm baaaaaack!
![]() ![]() Quote:
![]() Hobbit - ok, I'll keep going ![]() Lizra - Since I don't consider this "crap", I won't "cut it"! ![]() ![]() GrayMouser - (drat! I keep spelling it "grey" - is that an American vs. British thing?) The problem I see with macro ev. vs. micro ev. is HUGE - it's beneficial mutations causing increase of information - the so-called "fish to philosophers" thing. IOW, grossly (in the scientific sense of the word) improper extrapolation. Change has boundaries - when I first started typing, it was about 10 wpm; now I type at about 90 wpm (fast little sucker, ain't I?). Does that mean in another 20 years I'll type at 200 wpm, and in another 20 years I'll type at 400 wpm? No. I think there are boundaries to change. IMO, saying macro is just "more" micro is like saying: "I can observe my hair changing from brown to gray (micro evolution), and look, I can even use hair coloring stuff to change it to magenta! (micro evolution with scientific intervention)- so therefore I think given lots of time, my hair will change into arms (macro evolution)." Iimproper extrapolation, because arms represent a gain in information, not just a change of already-present features or a mutation keeping things on the same level (ie, hair is still hair). Quote:
Quote:
![]() Also, if you wouldn't mind terribly, I think I'll pass on the age thing for now, because it's one of the minor points to me, and I have enough to keep me busy discussing the major points!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-01-2003 at 08:44 PM. |
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1235 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
note to self
![]()
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1236 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I was thinking about this thread over vacation, and I think because of the way I post (long! - as Gwai mentioned
![]() ![]() Anyway, I thought I would wrap up here (if we DO start the new thread) by returning to the main topic - "should evolution be taught in schools?" I would answer yes, I think it should, but it is extremely important, when teaching it, to clear up some of the misconceptions floating around, in the name of maintaining scientific integrity, which any good scientist would agree is very important. So I wanted to bring up 2 topics (possibly 3) - Kettlewell's Peppered Moths experiment, Haeckel's Embryo drawings, and possibly also the Miller-Urey experiment, because I think there's some SERIOUS integrity issues involved, especially in the first 2.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-02-2003 at 03:19 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1237 |
Viggoholic
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,749
|
It would probably be best if we made a new thread, since we are OT with the original question. I think nearly everybody answered 'yes' to that question.
The thing is, lots of good points have already been made in this thread. But I'll go to the new thread if it's created.
__________________
Kids, you tried your best and you failed miserably. The lesson is, never try. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1238 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
A new thread would be best. Lets discuss the issues to death again.
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1239 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
OK, Cass and Hobbit - new thread it is! (and you don't HAVE to come, Hobbit, if it bores you to death
![]() But first - the Peppered moths! (I wish it wasn't summer, because we don't have as good access to school textbooks now, but at least we can check Eärniel's book, if it doesn't mind ![]() The peppered moths experiment showed up in both the original section of this thread, and then the new start-up of this thread. One of my BIG objections is when people say that the peppered moths' change from mostly white to mostly black in Kettlewell's experiment PROVES evolution. I think that misconception was dealt with very well here, and I think the people that brought up the moths eventually saw that all it showed was a SELECTION between ALREADY EXISTING moth colorations. This is NOT "proving" evolution. It's demonstrating natural selection on PRE-EXISTING moth types. Neither creationists nor evolutionists have any problem with this. Now what I DO have a problem with (once the above-mentioned misconception has been cleared up) is that there are some serious integrity issues involved in that experiment, and in the textbooks, lectures, etc. that use that experiment as an example - because the photographs commonly used to illustrate the experiment are -- STAGED/FAKED! And scientists and textbook writers have known about it for years, but have not corrected it. The pictures are either of moths that have been PLACED on the tree trunks (which is NOT their natural resting place!, and since they are noctural, they stay where they're put during the day); or even worse, sometimes the pictures have been of DEAD moths GLUED onto tree trunks. Now how many people have seen those moth-on-tree-trunk pictures in their textbooks? I know that I certainly have.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 07-02-2003 at 03:20 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#1240 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: NC/NJ (no longer Same place as bmilder.)
Posts: 61,986
|
I honestly don't know what you are talking about, I have never seen any moth pictures. Maybe I'll look it up later to see what you are talking about.
And because some moth pictures are fact that means that it is less likely for evolution to exist? How so? It seems to me what you are getting at is a small thing (correct me if I am wrong). There are many many more 'proofs' for evolution. And even if some moth pictures were faked, surely not every single picture of moths to prove evolution were faked. But I really have no idea what you are refering to. Do you have any links or anything to show what you are talking about and WHY you think they were all faked? Probably Cass can answer that better.
__________________
President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Evidence for Evolution | jerseydevil | General Messages | 599 | 05-18-2008 02:43 PM |
Catholic Schools Ban Charity | Last Child of Ungoliant | General Messages | 29 | 03-15-2005 04:58 PM |
Evidence for Creationism and Against Evolution | RÃan | General Messages | 1149 | 08-16-2004 06:07 PM |
A discussion about Evolution and other scientific theories | Elvellon | General Messages | 1 | 04-11-2002 01:23 PM |
Evolution | IronParrot | Entertainment Forum | 1 | 06-19-2001 03:22 AM |