05-27-2003, 09:30 PM | #1201 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
You're welcome, and I'm willing to stick it out and talk this whole question thru, as long as you're willing to read and consider it Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Could you think about it some more and let me know if you think that there is a single truth about the existence of gods or God? It may not be knowable, but there is a certain true situation at this point in time, tho. Would you agree?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-27-2003 at 09:37 PM. |
|||||
05-27-2003, 09:54 PM | #1202 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
And I guess we could go on anyway, even if you haven't made up your mind...
Mergh, I'm in a bummer of a mood tonite - I'd like to be able to talk about this more, but I have to go somewhere that I don't feel like going to -
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-28-2003, 01:40 AM | #1203 | |||||
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
Quote:
Quote:
However, I disagree that logical discussion is necessarily based on accepting things to be true or false. I don't know about you, but I'm not here to draw conclusions, at least not as my primary goal. What I am here for is to try to get a better understanding of other people's beliefs, and have a logical discussion based on our differing beliefs. I do not believe in absolute truth. You do. We go from there? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So, Rian, do you think we can continue there? We both know each other's beliefs about truth and its absoluteness (or lack thereof), so do we move on from there or keep this discussion up?
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
|||||
05-28-2003, 03:30 AM | #1204 |
Fowl Administrator
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 53,420
|
This is mostly a response to Lief. I will be brief. Hey, that rhymes.
I asked, several pages back, what breaks the circular self-affirmation of the Bible. What proves that it is the indisputable Word of God? Well, you wrote down a lot of pretty stuff about how venerable the Bible has been, and how it's survived despite so many pressing circumstances, but does that really say anything? Let's look at Greek culture. It survived the fall of Greece, the Christianization of Rome, the Crusades, the Dark Ages - only to resurface in the Renaissance. Sophocles, Aristotle, Plato, Cicero (Roman, I know), Archimedes, Ptolemy, even Pythagoras (of trigonometric fame) all thrived and resurfaced in a big way. And not just through cultural and religious purges in general, but even through such cataclysmic tragedies as the burning of Alexandria. The Homeric epics are studied to this day; entire courses are devoted to those solitary works of literature. Entire lives are devoted to their translation and analysis. True, statistically the Bible has been around longer and has reached more people; but it did get a head start, and one heck of a boost from the likes of Constantine. But here's another interesting point: my understanding - please correct me - is that although the Bible is presumed to be the direct Word of God, it was still scribed by Man - be it Moses, Joshua, Matthew, whoever. The important thing is that it was still written down by Man, albeit "inspired" by God. Therefore, God had to put everything into terms that Man could understand, and furthermore, be able to write down in the language of the time. Given that a) the lexicons of these early languages were not very robust; b) the intellectual capabilities of Man were what we would now call "primitive"; and c) the worldview of the Hebrews was severely limited in scope; how could The Word of God For Dummies still pass off as the Word of God in the face of superior empirical evidence? So my point is, even if God did exist, why rule out the possibility that things were severely simplified to conform to Man's level of intellectual maturity? And if that holds, then doesn't strict adherence to the Bible word for word become obsolete with human advancement, both cultural and scientific? We're talking about a set of documents that were written before anybody had ever heard of Galilean scientific method, human rights, universal suffrage (let alone the vote), existentialism, atomic theory, relativity - and let's not even get started on genetics. If one insists that God must exist, and that the Bible isn't wholly false (just divertingly rhetorical and prosaic), that leads to a more reasonable claim: that God left out a lot of details that would be completely incomprehensible to the scribes he was busy "inspiring", and that the Bible is a general, metaphorical framework for history. And who are the people who refute this? The same ones who claim that the Bible is The Word of God, Period, and stands as canonical truth that precedes the empirical. And this claim is, as I've pointed out, circular. This casts a shadow of doubt upon the entire work. I'm not saying that God doesn't exist - that is just a "hunch" on my part, with about as much proof as belief in God does (i.e. roundabout none) - but the veracity of the Bible is highly questionable either way you put it. On a note about all religions, not just Christianity: I don't agree with Marx about a lot of things (being the capitalist bourgeois pigdog I am) - but one thing I think he got right was that religion is part of a superstructure of authoritarian control. No matter how you put it, a dictated adherence to a document as "truth" - be it anything from the Holy Bible to Mao's Little Red Book - is a restriction upon human thought. That, to me, stunts the progress of the human mind; and I don't see how that is in any way a good thing. It is human nature to question, and questioning the grand narratives of existence is the paragon of this endeavour. It's essential to self-determination and the overall development of civilization. I think practically everybody on this board lives in a society guided by the Rule of Law. By a Constitution. They serve as a framework for our lives, but at least they can be amended.
__________________
All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
05-28-2003, 10:18 AM | #1205 | |
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: I have no idea.
Posts: 5,441
|
I know this is a bit off topic, but I thought the Christians would be pleased to know that they have converted Coney to Christianity.
Here's his post in the Mud Wrestling thread... Quote:
|
|
05-28-2003, 12:27 PM | #1206 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: NEW JERSEY!
Posts: 375
|
i think a coney rabbit would be more likely to read a bible not that either can read
__________________
Woah Deep |
05-28-2003, 12:36 PM | #1207 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
Coney, you didn't! *looks horrified*
Riiiight, anyway. *tries to be serious* *realizes this is a futile effort* Anyway, um, IronParrot, nice post. Well thought out and whatnot. *admires IP's post* (not to mention that I agree with it, but the main point is that I thought it was well written. um.)
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
05-28-2003, 12:43 PM | #1208 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Well, I believe that there is a true state of things, and even in your multiple worlds/multiple gods example, to me, well, that would be the true state of things. So a statement like "there is only one God" would be either true or false, or would need to be properly clarified to something that CAN be declared to be true or false, like "there is only one God in THIS world". Now that still doesn't mean that we'll KNOW if it's true or false, just that there IS a true statement of what is real. SO - I think I'll take a bit of a coming-from-all-angles approach here - since for me, and also according to the Bible, there IS a truth - and go into the hell thing from different sides. (to be continued in next post )
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-28-2003 at 12:51 PM. |
|
05-28-2003, 12:48 PM | #1209 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
The "God designed Hell in a bad mood" idea
The above title was meant to be humorous, but really, I think it expresses what some people think, altho they haven't fully thought it out, when they say things like "why does there have to BE a hell, anyway?"
One of the best statements I've ever came across was from a C. S. Lewis book ("of course!", says anyone that knows me ) (I added the bold part for emphasis) - Quote:
Now here are some thoughts I've heard expressed about hell: Quote:
Option 1 - cranky mood: "Hey, are those guys lying AGAIN?!?! Well, I've had ENOUGH! Those idiots are really ticking me off!! I'll show them, I'll make hell and send them there! THAT'LL serve them right! Option 2 - childish mood: "And how about those guys over there? Why, they're COMPLETELY ignoring me!! How insulting! I'm really hurt *sniff* - I'll pay THEM back! I'll send THEM to hell, too!" Option 3 - jealous mood: "OH MY GOD! (tee hee, I made a funny!! I'm just such a great God! I love Myself!) Those creeps over there are actually worshipping some other god! Hey, what about Me? I'm lots better!! *pout* Look at everything I've done for you - given you nice laws and things, and you're worshipping those gods?!?!!? Well, you're going to hell, buddy!! OK, now be honest - have any of these gone thru your head? I know they've gone thru mine.
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-28-2003 at 01:10 PM. |
||
05-28-2003, 12:51 PM | #1210 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
Quote:
*sees Rian's next post* ooh, we get to talk about Hell now! yay! Maybe I should reread Dante's Inferno
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
|
05-28-2003, 01:11 PM | #1211 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
OK, EG, I finished editing my post (the one above yours) - any thoughts?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-28-2003, 01:18 PM | #1212 |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
Yes, those ideas have. Certainly. Although, I don't think of Hell so much as being made by God in a bad/jealous/childish mood, but the idea of putting people there. Um. I guess it's pretty much the same...ish. But, yes, and most especially the Jealous one. Although I find that "Jealous God" thing all over, not just in the existance of hell.
Another thought that I've had on hell is the subjugation of the masses thing again. "If you don't do what you're told you'll go to hell." That sort of thing. So please, tell me more! On a side note, true to my somewhat blasphemous nature (but only blasphemous to those who believe, not to me. Um.), I found this online quiz thing that told you what level of hell you belonged in. I got banished to the seventh level.
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
05-28-2003, 01:19 PM | #1213 |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Indiana, USA
Posts: 1,423
|
I've always thought that hell was simply the opposite of God...IOW whatever God does/says is LAW because He is God and He made everything, and if you don't follow that law then naturally you are rebelling against the natural order of the Law....does that mae sense?
|
05-28-2003, 02:20 PM | #1214 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
I'm living dangerously trying to deal with 2 complex subjects at once, but... oh well... there's a couple of comments that I'd like to throw in here on your post, IP -
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think God did a v. difficult job extremely well! OF COURSE it would have to be in a form understandable by people, and in the languages of the time. What's so amazing is that it is still relevant and understandable TODAY. Quote:
about b) - absolutely not!! Pardon me, but that's artifact/accumulated-knowledge snobbery, don't you think? Now they may not have had as much KNOWLEDGE, but that is NO reflection on their intellectual capabilities. I heard a good statement once that I think fits this situation very well - roughly, "the same wheel that proved its first maker a genius would prove a wheelmaker 200 years later a dunce." IOW, whoever first thought of the wheel was absolutely brilliant, and I'm sure the wheel was rather a rough and inefficient one. But after hundred of years of wheel making, OF COURSE a wheel would be better - that, however, doesn't mean the wheel MAKERS are any smarter. about c) - same answer as for a), and I think you're again mixing up amount of KNOWLEDGE for intellectual capacity when you use the term "dummies". There were many, many brilliant people in the ancient world. You know Pythagoras' brilliant work, but that is no credit to you - YOU didn't come up with it!
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-28-2003 at 02:33 PM. |
||||
05-28-2003, 02:35 PM | #1215 | |
Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Lyonesse
Posts: 4,547
|
Sorry if I'm spamming, but. . .I just really liked this:
Quote:
__________________
Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK! |
|
05-28-2003, 02:47 PM | #1216 | |||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Good post, IP, I enjoyed discussing it. What do you think of my responses?
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 05-28-2003 at 02:49 PM. |
|||||||
05-28-2003, 04:42 PM | #1217 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
|
05-28-2003, 04:55 PM | #1218 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
||
05-28-2003, 05:21 PM | #1219 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Reality
Posts: 5,340
|
I have to disagree with the statement "the Bible is applicable/significant in all times". It does not apply to this time for me, and many others. That's probably why a fair amount of people right here do not take it seriously. It's forced upon you, if you want to "live forever".
__________________
Happy Atheist Go Democrats! |
05-28-2003, 05:47 PM | #1220 | |||
Fowl Administrator
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Calgary or Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 53,420
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I might as well use poor Pythagoras as an example again. The only reason a-squared plus b-squared equals c-squared is still taught in schools is because it is "relevant and understandable". That does not make it true! In fact, the Pythagorean theorem is only true under strict, abstract definitional conditions of perfectly orthogonal space. It is an approximation. Similarly, the Conservation Laws are approximations that are shattered at the subatomic level. Adam Smith's supply-and-demand model is obsolete, yet it is still taught and moreover, applied. Why? Because it works to a degree. But just because it works in some contexts doesn't mean it works in all. If the Bible is indeed simplified - as you readily admit - then it cannot be taken as solid truth, but rather an approximated model. And no way would such an approximated model make any mention of, say, evolutionary processes. Remember that the societies in which the Bible originated and propogated still subjugated women, bred intolerance of alternate faiths, and didn't even know there was such a thing as America (let alone Native Americans and their own specific traditions). I blame it all on that nasty little passage in Revelations that essentially "locks" the Bible from further amendment. The impossibility of amendment is what separates it from scientific laws (constantly revised by Galilean experimentation) and civil laws (amended by human legislation). Because these are free to be challenged and revised all the time, they never claim any sort of absolute universal truth. Yet like the Bible, their relevance remains. Hammurabi's code of law in ancient Babylon is still relevant in the sense that it introduced the concept of the legal code, but it wouldn't be very pleasant if we still enforced "an eye for an eye" in a literal sense. When one claims that the Bible is truth, one is claiming that a millennia-old document is not open to challenge. That, to me, is unjustified.
__________________
All of IronParrot's posts are guaranteed to be 100% intelligent and/or sarcastic, comprising no genetically modified content and tested on no cute furry little animals unless the SPCA is looking elsewhere. If you observe a failure to uphold this warranty, please contact a forum administrator immediately to receive a full refund on your Entmoot registration. Blog: Nick's Café Canadien |
|||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Whats on your Bookshelf? | hectorberlioz | General Literature | 135 | 02-12-2007 07:26 PM |
The Order of The Blue Flame Discussion Thread | zavron | RPG Forum | 9 | 01-01-2003 02:13 PM |
The Dreams Discussion Thread | zavron | RPG Forum | 7 | 01-01-2003 02:03 PM |
The Conspiracies! (TOC vs. DC!) Discussion thread | Duddun | RPG Forum | 11 | 12-27-2002 04:19 PM |
Y2K: a "what if" thread | Darth Tater | General Messages | 10 | 03-04-2001 03:06 PM |