Bush's Security on visit to Buckingham Palace

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by sun-star
Speaking as someone who is (hopefully) neither, but is (undoubtedly) counted as both by virtue of being European, I found the protesters in Trafalgar Square really disturbing. How could they think that stunt with the statue was a logical or reasoned form of protest? It's just sick, today of all days. And it's funny how the media makes such a fuss about them, when apparently there were about 100,000 there at the highest estimate. There were four times that at the Countryside Alliance march. Hardly a representative sample of the population, and the media acts like the protesters are speaking for the whole country.

Yeah I hear you sun-star. I think it is disturbing for the "peace protestors" to compare the President to Saddam who is/was one of the worst tyranical despot of all time. It really makes me wonder how people can think such things.

Yeah, over here the reporters said the protestors planned for about 100,000 people but only 35,000 showed up, lol.

Don't worry, a lot of us know it doesn't represent your whole population, we have moronic protestors over here too

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by sun-star
Yes, we're all weak and evil, aren't we?

I don't have any problems with you sun-star. I don't think you are all evil. I just think it's funny and rather disturbing how these protesters go and march constantly against us - when there is real atrocities going on and yet are completely quiet.

We know that most of Europe views us as evil and one of the main threats to world peace - at least that is what the latest polls out of europe say.

Speaking as someone who is (hopefully) neither, but is (undoubtedly) counted as both by virtue of being European, I found the protesters in Trafalgar Square really disturbing. How could they think that stunt with the statue was a logical or reasoned form of protest? It's just sick, today of all days. And it's funny how the media makes such a fuss about them, when apparently there were about 100,000 there at the highest estimate. There were four times that at the Countryside Alliance march. Hardly a representative sample of the population, and the media acts like the protesters are speaking for the whole country.

Because really - the media supports the protests. I know the british media doesn't like Bush - at least from what I saw on the BBC and from what I read on BBC. BBC.com goes so far to ask for protestor pics so they can put them on their website. It doesn't ask for pics of the president or anything.

This is what annoys me - on Le Figaro they have this pic on the main page of their website...



When this happened today...


by terrorists. Something is wrong with these protestors.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
it gives terrorists a feeling they are winning the public relations battle and that as long as they keep attacking that we will pull out. That is whjat they want. So in an indirect way - they are causing deaths of American soldiers in my opinion.

And as I stated - where are the damn protesters marching against the terrorist bombings?

Where are they? They're parading up and down the streets with American flags in the back window of their cars, or stickers on their bumpers. They have the "we support our troops and our president" signs in their lawns. They're all over the place. What more do you want? A parade through downtown in every city and town?

I do not agree with your connection between the death of soldiers in the war in Iraq and peaceful protest. However, as you stated, that is YOUR OPINION, you have a right to it. As a citizen of the US I have every right to assemble peacefully and protest, if I so desire, any action my government makes that I do not agree with. No, I haven't protested against or for, and I've given the reason why.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
Where are they? They're parading up and down the streets with American flags in the back window of their cars, or stickers on their bumpers. They have the "we support our troops and our president" signs in their lawns. They're all over the place. What more do you want? A parade through downtown in every city and town?

I think you know what I'm talking about? Where is the international support. You only looked at the US. As for the US - there were marches at the UN when Bush was there - amazingly - there are never marches thereagainst other countries really. There are never marches against the attrocities in iran. There are never marches against the Palestinians - but plenty of univerities are organizing "boycott israel" events.

I do not agree with your connection between the death of soldiers in the war in Iraq and peaceful protest. However, as you stated, that is YOUR OPINION, you have a right to it. As a citizen of the US I have every right to assemble peacefully and protest, if I so desire, any action my government makes that I do not agree with. No, I haven't protested against or for, and I've given the reason why.

I didn't say you don't have a right to protest - I'm just saying that the terrorists seeing the protests - just feeds their fire. They see that they have people on their side (whether they are actually on the terrorist side - it doesn't matter) but they know if they just keep doing more and more attacks - those protesters will get larger and larger. As the protesters get larger and larger - it will be harder to see this through. If that happens - then the terrorists have won. They would love nothign more than for a president who wants to just pull out the troops out of iraq, that stops fighting. Sorry - you don't understand this.

[Draken]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
That's a good word to use from now on. And Dúnedain - I know that Europe didn't only do it with Hitler - he's just the most visible one at the moment. Also - with Hitler - Europe went even further than just ignoring him - they gave countries to him. "Oh - you want Czechloslavakia - okay - yeah sure. Just move right in. Just don't touch Poland."

Nice to know that after being so tardy with the first two world wars, public opinion is for America to be bang on time with the next one.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Draken
Nice to know that after being so tardy with the first two world wars, public opinion is for America to be bang on time with the next one.

Either way bad stuff would be said about us. If we were tardy on something again, the whole world would bitch at us and if we cut it off before things got out of hand the world would bitch at us. Basically America can do nothing right in the eyes of the world, except for some of our allies...

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Actually - it wasn't kept from the public if you watched the news and read newspapers. It was all out there from the very beginning. Some people just don't watch the news and then act like they know what they are talking about

The Nightline show on the 2 Hussain sons didn't come out until after they had been reported dead. We knew that the Kurds (sp?) were being persecuted and murdered. We didn't know EVERYTHING that was happening.

The protestors can go on and on about how they are not anti-american - but I don't see them marching against the true evils of this world, but they'll march in protest at the US at the drop of a hat.

I think that some of these protesters have gone overboard and are more than melodramatic. For example, Bush as a 'war criminal'? Bush as 'Hitler'? None of this makes any sense. Going to an extreme loses the support of people like me.

I do agree with you, jerseydevil, that a democratic government is a better government than what they had, which was a dictatorship.

Originally posted by Sween
As a brit i support the continuation of the monarcy because of the benefit they give to British tourism. They hold no real power but they do have power that i love and that is for any war the government have to go through the Queen now allthough i very much doubt she would ever use this right its nice to have that check. All in all the Royals make a lot more money than they cost us so why the hell not keep them?

Thanks. If they're bringing in tourist dollars, then I'd keep them too. Nothin' like a good tourist trap to rake in the bucks.

[Dúnedain]

One thing that really pissed me off that I saw today was someone in Englad holding an American Flag and the stars were replaced by a swastika

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Draken
Nice to know that after being so tardy with the first two world wars, public opinion is for America to be bang on time with the next one.

Jonathan and I just discussed this concerning the appeasement of Hitler by Europe. He had said - that I had to understand that Europe didn't want to get into another war after having just fought one. I replied back - well then Europeans should understand why America was reluctant to get involved in another major European war which was half a world away.

The thing is - America seems to have learned from the past - but Europe hasn't - which is pretty said.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
One thing that really pissed me off that I saw today was someone in Englad holding an American Flag and the stars were replaced by a swastika

They used that before the Iraq war too. I love the ones here they have pictures of George Bush dressed as Hitler with a Hitler mustache. Really makes me wonder if they really have any true sense of what is evil and what isn't. or maybe it's just a way of expressing their anti-american feelings. It's not like the same things weren't done with Reagan too.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
The Nightline show on the 2 Hussain sons didn't come out until after they had been reported dead. We knew that the Kurds (sp?) were being persecuted and murdered. We didn't know EVERYTHING that was happening.

We did too know the kurds were being killed. And as for Husseins sons - it was right after they were killed that it was released. So unless you don't watch the news - I can't see how you can say this was kept from the public. NO - we can't know everything when it happens - like the capture of someone. Intelligence forces want to see if people will try contacting them, and so forth. If they report that information right away - it prevents them from gathering more intelligence or capturing others.

I think that some of these protesters have gone overboard and are more than melodramatic. For example, Bush as a 'war criminal'? Bush as 'Hitler'? None of this makes any sense. Going to an extreme loses the support of people like me.

It loses support - or gets others riled up to join. I do agree with you that in MY eyes - it makes their opinion just seem downright ridiculous.

I do agree with you, jerseydevil, that a democratic government is a better government than what they had, which was a dictatorship.

Not just a dictatorship - but a brutal one at that.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
We did too know the kurds were being killed. And as for Husseins sons - it was right after they were killed that it was released. So unless you don't watch the news - I can't see how you can say this was kept from the public....

[EDIT] Ok, perhaps that was a little strong. I'm having a crappy day (read the vent thread). My apologies.
I said...

The Nightline show on the 2 Hussain sons didn't come out until after they had been reported dead. We knew that the Kurds (sp?) were being persecuted and murdered.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
One thing that really pissed me off that I saw today was someone in Englad holding an American Flag and the stars were replaced by a swastika

It's this kind of crap that just pisses me off! America is NOTHING like Nazi Germany! And I am HIGHLY OFFENDED at such a ridiculous display.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
GODDAMMIT!!! READ WHAT I WROTE BEFORE YOU GO OFF ON ME!
I said...

Sorry - but you incuded it with

The Nightline show on the 2 Hussain sons didn't come out until after they had been reported dead.

So I read it as "We didn't know..."

Then youu wedged it between this statement...

We didn't know EVERYTHING that was happening.

My comment still stands on Hussein's sons - so my going off on you still stands. And the fact that we can't expect to know everything as soon as it happens. But that doesn't mean that there is a big coverup or anything.

We did not know the full attrocities of the tortures Hussein was doing - because they were all done behind closed doors. We did know a lot of the attrocities though. Enough for me to determine that Hussein was no better than Melochevic and if we could go after him - we could go after Hussein.

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry - but you included it with ...

So I read it as "We didn't know..."

Then youu wedged it between this statement...

Is that the same as saying, "sorry, but it's your fault that I made a mistake."
......yeeeeeaaaaaahh, thanks, dude.

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by Ruinel
One more thing.

I have a question for the Brits. Given that your government could go on without a monarch, since she really doesn't do anything but what she's told anyway, do you support your taxes going to support this "branch" of your government? Or do you feel that it is not an efficient use of the money you work for? (I honestly would like to know how you feel, and you know how I feel about it. )

No and yes. But, then, I'd abolish 'em and have an elected head of state (like the Irish model), so I'm probably not representative of UK public opinion.

I can see that there's case for keeping them: tradition and all that, but I think it's far worse to have an archaic system of inherited power (albeit titular only).

[The Gaffer]

Originally posted by sun-star
Yes, we're all weak and evil, aren't we?

I know I am. However, I have made an appointment for my lobotomy and will soon be joining the cheering, joyous crowd

Originally posted by sun-star

Speaking as someone who is (hopefully) neither, but is (undoubtedly) counted as both by virtue of being European, I found the protesters in Trafalgar Square really disturbing. How could they think that stunt with the statue was a logical or reasoned form of protest? It's just sick, today of all days. And it's funny how the media makes such a fuss about them, when apparently there were about 100,000 there at the highest estimate. There were four times that at the Countryside Alliance march. Hardly a representative sample of the population, and the media acts like the protesters are speaking for the whole country.

The stunt was pretty sick, but it makes good telly so that's why it's all over the place.

Estimates range from 70-200k protestors, the most that has EVER turned out midweek to protest anything.

[The Gaffer]

There's been rather a lot of right-wing doublethink echoing around this thread:

Originally posted by jerseydevil
There are never marches against the attrocities in iran. There are never marches against the Palestinians - but plenty of univerities are organizing "boycott israel" events.

...
They see that they have people on their side (whether they are actually on the terrorist side - it doesn't matter) but they know if they just keep doing more and more attacks - those protesters will get larger and larger.

(btw - in case anyone thinks this post is directed at THEM, I'm actually directing it at all of the people who have been putting forward these views)

I'm surprised you hadn't worked it out, but the reason people are demonstrating against OUR government's policy is that it's OUR government, and it's our responsibility as democratic citizens to make a stink when that government is wrong.

The terrorists are not our terrorists, no matter how much you would like to depict us as being "on their side" (which I find offensive in the extreme and wilfully ignorant). That's why we don't demonstrate against them.

Every democratic society quite rightly has debate, sometimes it's even open and vigorous. In this case, the people who are most stridently favour the war in Iraq are in the bloody White House and 10 Downing Street (and they brook no dissent from within their own ranks) while those who oppose it are out in the streets, so that's why the debate has to happen in the way it does.

[Draken]

But Gaffer, SURELY you know that we must all stand shoulder to shoulder in a war against terrorism? Though it's funny, I do seem to recall there being terrorist attacks against a whole range of western nations before September 11, which didn't seem to end up with anyone standing at anyone's shoulder in particular.

In fact the usual sort of response from a suddenly VERY keen proponent of the War on Terrorism was "Well you've brought it on yourselves and one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, oh and by the way we've just shipped them another boat load of Armalites."

Odd how times change.

[Hemel]

Thank you Gaffer for explaining that.

As one of the people who would have marched if possible, I see that from a quick scan here I would then have been labelled as 'moronic', 'anti-American', considered as probably not knowing the difference between good and evil, standing side by side with terrorists, causing in an indirect way the death of USAmerican soldiers (funny I thought others were over there and had died there too), and so on ... yeah, well, thanks.

Sadly it has not surprised me to see how someone who may not agree with a particular view being put forward here is immediately spoken of in terms which would suggest that they are rendered sub-human. (Of course, we know what happens once one begins to see other people as not-human .... ... )

Thank you Draken as well. I think maybe it has been forgotten how long we over here in the UK suffered terrorist attacks, and, might I add, there were certainly allegations being made over who might have been funding or partially funding some of those attacks.

On the particular march - well, it's been called a record for a midweek turn out. (Remember Thursdays are working days for very very many of us, and the countryside alliance march was at a weekend.) I believe the demonstration against war way back in February was the all-time record turn out for London, and there were demonstrations in other parts of the UK too, btw.

For yesterday's march there was a whole cross-section of our society represented as well, and a considerable number of reasons for marching, which did include the concerns that the actions in Iraq have made the world a less safe place now (we here, for a start, are on terrorist alert and attacks that have been interpreted as aimed at British interests took place yesterday), anger that Tony Blair is not necessarily representing our interests, that he may have fudged some issues to justify going into Iraq, and that he appears to be selling our sovereignty (he has been called 'Bush's poodle' and 'the organ grinder's monkey'), anger against the war, which many people still see as illegal, and so on.

Don't worry. I'm not upset over this. Nor do I want a big argument. I just wanted to point out that maybe things aren't quite as clearly cut as some posters here might appear to think. But I'm sure we all knew that anyway ...

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On another matter entirely. The queen? Ah, well, I'm a fan. I am not at all happy about the hangers-on, but I really do believe she does the very best she can and is an immense asset to our country. I'm lucky enough to have met also Prince Charles - he was immensely courteous, and I think has been very much misunderstood. Anyone know, as a matter of interest, any comparative figures on expenditure/income for country for Bush and the queen?

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