Orcs

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

You take all the genetic markers from the worst human beings in history and combine them in one person. That person would be... what? What does that person look like at the core?

Define "worst" ...

I wouldn't say worst. I'd say that there are plenty of traits that would predispose someone to "orc-like" behavior however.

Low impulse control, agressive tendancies, low intelligence (tricky- it has to be low enough so that they don't want to think for themsleves, but high enough so that they make good fighters), oh and you'd want a good bit of tribal/herd mentality...

Sure it would make them easier to control... but even in the absence of some kind of domination you're looking at a violent society that only respects brute force.

The orcs could have been genetically constructed to make them very susceptible to domination by a demonic power, and the reason that they remained mostly evil was that the actions became... oh, shall we say, ingrained? Like a monitor that's held the same image for two long - the constant domination burned morgoths will into their brains, or whatever neural restructuring he did stuck. At that point, the behavior would become mostly self-propogating, as that generation of orcs would raise a generation in their own image, and make way for generations of orcs to follow in the same pattern because they didn't know anything else.

Actually now you're mixing concepts... Domination would lead to cultural change. if the culture were self sustaining, then the orcs who were best suited for it would be the ones that survived to propigate...

Which is exactly the same thing as a breeding program. And breeding for traits is the simplest form of gentic engineering there is. If you removed the orc from the environment, would the "programing" still have an effect? If it didn't, I'd say that Morgoth would have considered it a failed experiment...

Besides all that, the orcs were actually "engineered" or bred by Sauron. He did the actual hands- on work, Morgoth provided the "capitol" ...

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

That's the point. Morgoth doesn't seem to care whether they're evil or not. Morgoth's goal was never to 'be evil' or to 'make other people evil'. It was all about power. Morgoth didn't create the orcs out of some twisted parody of parental affection, he created them because he wanted to control them, and to use them to bring the rest of the world under his control. Whether they would be evil when not doing his will wasn't really an issue.

Err.. actually they were created in mockery of the children of illuvatar...
And Morgoth at that point had long passed on from the ability to perform any task without it being twisted by hatred and evil....

[Blackheart]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

All the evidence points to both Morgoth and Sauron having had the orcs under some serious mind control.

There's a difference between mind control, and filling someone with hatred. A large difference. You can easily do the same with humans. You needn't control someone's mind to get them to throw away the instinct for self preservation. Just get them to hate the "enemy" enough, and they'll risk everything to inflict damage.

It happens every day in the modern world... Nothing magical about it at all.

[me9996]

Originally Posted by Wayfarer

Yay for argument! Whee!

Argument one: Orcs are /NOT/ cannibals.

When Ugluk and Grishnakh's factions fight, several orcs are killed. However, the bodys are simply left to lie there, not eaten.
When Shagrat and Gorbag's factions in mordor come to blows, there is no sign that the dead bodies are eaten.
When One orc is seen to kill another in mordor, he simply runs off, no hint of cannibalism.

Perhaps more telling, prior to the first instance I mentioned, Ugluk is heard to say that Saruman "...gives us man-flesh to eat!", to which Grishnakh replies "It's orc-flesh...I wager!" sparking the violent confrontation. Certainly this is an indication that orcs do not eat other orcs, even if they will eat men.

Also note that, in the hobbit, the goblins are said to eat ponies, and worse things- but keep humans as slaves. An interesting thing if they're supposedly man-eaters.

They didn't have time to eat each other!