Good and Evil

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
I disagree. Chimpanzees rape and murder for a reason.

I said "necessity" NOT "reason". Absolutely, chimpanzees kill for territory, and especially hierarchy. Most of the video footage shows them ganging up on the weaker individual, not the dominant male: so it's definately about hierarchy. However, these acts are not always strictly necessary to their survival. This is what I was trying to say. NOT that these acts are beyond the scope of basic hierarchical/territorial interactions. IMO, humans haven't even managed to quite throw off this particular aspect of their nature either, so it would be rather silly for me to try and implicate that chimps are somehow not bound by these rules!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
From all of the posts that I have seen, the Christians that have posted on this thread do NOT blindly and idiotically say "um, Bible say this so we believe it without question *scratch under armpit, pick nose* Now let's go out and lynch someone that doesn't believe the same way as we do! Whee!".

*laugh* fair enough. see a true bible zombie (and there are many out there) would be incapable of such humar RÃ*an. So I salute you for that at least.

In my opinion, IR, YOU (and others who believe that the theory of evolution is correct in its current form) are limited by what the THEORY of evolution asserts! (on some very doubtful evidence, IMO). But I'll do you the courtesy of assuming that you have brought your intelligence to bear on the question of whether or not it appears to be a valid theory, and have come to the conclusion that it IS, IYO.

its just such simple elementary logic to me. Think about how you feel about the concept that the earth is round. Its just a given for you. Thats basically how I feel about evolution because of all the studies Ive had regarding it. So when I talk about it just keep saying to yourself that its simply a basic given fact to him of the highest order. Its a no brainer.

Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, IR, but I just really get irritated when Christians are perceived as putting their brains aside when their religious beliefs are involved - we DON"T!! (at least I don't, and the Christians I see represented on this thread don't, IMO).

no no I apologize for puting it that way. Im sure there was a little frustration on my part in there. Ive been much much worse about it though with not so nice not so open minded christians in the past so gimme some credit. You guys would never ellicit such comments. Im talking about the off the chart right wing christian activists who only talk IN CAPITAL LETTERS!!! and preech about what an abomination it is to teach anything but creationism and bible study in public schools. It makes me cringe to even think such creatures even exist in this world. So thank goodness there are none here on the moot. Now Ill try not to be so evil....

[Lizra]

Ahhh, you met the mothers in my home school support group! (I got out of that fast!)

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Lizra
Ahhh, you met the mothers in my home school support group! (I got out of that fast!)

LMAO!

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by RÃ*an
Oy, it's too early to answer that one! Brain not awake yet... very complex - think Rahab lying to save the Jewish spies, etc., and she was commended... but for her faith, maybe not for the lying .... Oy! *takes 2 aspirin*

Quick answer would be 'absolutely not', but modified by 'things aren't always as black-and-white as we would like them to be' ... rats! *takes 2 more aspirin*

Are you saying that you can't really answer this?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
However, these acts are not always strictly necessary to their survival. This is what I was trying to say. NOT that these acts are beyond the scope of basic hierarchical/territorial interactions. IMO, humans haven't even managed to quite throw off this particular aspect of their nature either, so it would be rather silly for me to try and implicate that chimps are somehow not bound by these rules!

So are you saying humans basically kill and do "evil" things mostly from biological (instinctualy based) basis as well? I totally agree with that. Like I was saying before I think free will in humans is over rated. We do a lot we think is choice but that is really based on something more animal. Its just hard to trace it because of our intelligence.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lizra
Ahhh, you met the mothers in my home school support group! (I got out of that fast!)

oh dear. well at least they arent taking over the PTA there like they are in some places. Im glad I dont live in Kansas right now.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
Question: If that is so, then why is war never justifiable?

Ummmm there is a thing we learned in religion class called the "Just War Theory" but I was absent the day we learned it.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
cannabis? Do you mean cannibals?

But if everything is relative, than it would depend on the situation, would it not?

Cannabis is the plant name for marijuana. He said:

Man made beer
God made cannabis ... Who do you trust?

It contradicts how everything God made was good.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
Cannabis is the plant name for marijuana. He said:

Man made beer
God made cannabis ... Who do you trust?

It contradicts how everything God made was good.

No it doesn't.........God created a natural high.........man created a his own

Their is no contradiction in opposition.

[Ragnarok]

Originally posted by Coney
No it doesn't.........God created a natural high.........man created a his own

Their is no contradiction in opposition.

I see what your saying, I should have worded that better.

[Coney]

Originally posted by Ragnarok
I see what your saying, I should have worded that better.

.....*shakes head*

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
So are you saying humans basically kill and do "evil" things mostly from biological (instinctualy based) basis as well? I totally agree with that. Like I was saying before I think free will in humans is over rated. We do a lot we think is choice but that is really based on something more animal. Its just hard to trace it because of our intelligence.

Something like that. I think biology has a lot to do with how we interact with other individuals. For example, our brain size dictates what group size we would be most comfortable interacting within. The larger the brain in a mammal, the bigger the group it is able to successfully interact with other individuals, and attain control within the population. IIRC, the maximum potential for a human social interaction is around 50 individuals: any larger, and the social cohesion begins to disintergrate - people can't hear each other because it's too loud, and people are too far apart to really interact. (I'm talking direction interaction. Obviously, we've managed to bypass this somewhat, given the success of civilisation.) And I think the concept of morals, specifically "good" and "evil" is, as you say, mostly a human construction; a lot of it boils down to basic survival instinct - it's not a good idea to reduce the gene pool with random killing; especially for mammals who invest quite an extensive amount of their time and energy in raising their offspring. It's all about maximising the gene pool. "Rape" within the chimpanzee population allows more variation to exist within the gene-pool, which can act to reduce the chances of founders effect occuring within the gene pool. Rape is such a spectre within human society; it's probably one of the worst things that can happen to a woman; and it's acts like these that serve to remind us that we've only separated from our more animalistic forebears for a few hundred thousand years at best. It's quite interesting that sentience has lead to acts like rape and murder, that while almost an exclusively human trait, is rooted very strongly in "animalistic" behaviour.

[Coney]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I said "necessity" NOT "reason". Absolutely, chimpanzees kill for territory, and especially hierarchy. Most of the video footage shows them ganging up on the weaker individual, not the dominant male: so it's definately about hierarchy. However, these acts are not always strictly necessary to their survival. This is what I was trying to say. NOT that these acts are beyond the scope of basic hierarchical/territorial interactions. IMO, humans haven't even managed to quite throw off this particular aspect of their nature either, so it would be rather silly for me to try and implicate that chimps are somehow not bound by these rules!

Actually male prisons work pretty much the same way (you'd be shocked how many men are raped in prison) ........I don't know how things work in female prisons...........*shrugs* maybe we are not so far removed from the "lesser species" when we are forced into a situation that forces us into a more base fight for survival?

[Lizra]

Yes, some things seem to be some sort of "instinct" to me! I really feel "good" when I help someone. Another person, or an animal, or even a plant. I wonder why. I know some of this pleasure is "learned", but it's such a "deep down" good feeling, there must be some kind of instinct to it! (IMO)
But, I really feel "jealous" and angry-bad if I see others having more, working less, than me or my family members. That makes me angry in a "deep down " way, and must be some sort of "survival" instinct. It's this one that could make me do evil, if I wasn't such a well learned "good girl"!

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Something like that. I think biology has a lot to do with how we interact with other individuals. For example, our brain size dictates what group size we would be most comfortable interacting within. The larger the brain in a mammal, the bigger the group it is able to successfully interact with other individuals, and attain control within the population. IIRC, the maximum potential for a human social interaction is around 50 individuals: any larger, and the social cohesion begins to disintergrate

good observations all. have you ever read a book called The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris. It says some very interesting things about human social density theories.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, some things semm to be some sort of "instinct" to me! I really feel "good" when I help someone. Another person, or an animal, or even a plant. I wonder why. I know some of this pleasure is "learned", but it's such a "deep down" good feeling, there must be some kind of instinct to it! (IMO)
But, I really feel "jealous" and angry-bad if I see others having more, working less, than me or my family members. That makes me angry in a "deep down " way, and must be some sort of "survival" instinct. It's this one that could make me do evil, if I wasn't such a well learned "good girl"!

you animal you. yes you feel good when you help someone out because evolution has favored the development of altruism in our species. That way someone might help you out as well when you need it because it makes them feel good. you rub my back and Ill rub yours. and the species benefits.

[Lizra]

I feel good just reading that! If you and I team up and help each other, we can "get over" on some of the others! eh? heh heh!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Lizra
Yes, some things semm to be some sort of "instinct" to me!

Isn't it about this point that AE provides links for the hormones that produce "love"?

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
good observations all. have you ever read a book called The Human Zoo by Desmond Morris. It says some very interesting things about human social density theories.

Probably. I can't remember: I covered quite a bit when I was researching for an undergraduate anthropology paper, so it's possible that I stumbled across him at some stage.

[Lizra]

Yes, the brain chemicals! How could I forget! Blah blah causes happy, bleh bleh causes sad. He's right, too!