A Question on Balrogs

[Andúril]

Maybe the Moria balrog wanted a scary "fake-wing" shadow. But still, why not real wings...???

"I'll do it.......MYYYY WAAAAAAY!!"

And down he fell...

[BeardofPants]

I'm still going for the inter-changeable shadow formation. Wings of shadow, people! Wings of shadow.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I don't think so. They were a race- they all were like each other (not exactly like each, roughly). So I think that if one of them have wings, they all had.

Err. Not. No more than the Maiar were a "race".

The Valaraukar were maia who were suborned by by Melkor, and while less subtle than Sauron, were still Maia, the same as Olorion or Melian.

Which is one of the reasons they were so damned scary.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Anduril
Hmmm, and if a balrog wanted wings that could make it fly? Would it then materialize wings, and then fall off a mountain/down a chasm?

"Damn chicken wings..."

If someone slapped your winged ass with a staff strike, could you fly with your wings?

But here's a bone for you.

Perhas the balrog was even more cunning, and as he fell he changed into something with tentacles, because he knew he could whip that old bastard's leg and pull him down into the darkness.

Fair fight? Screw you old wizard.

I vote for the cunning nasty balrog who knows how to think and shapeshift.

[Andúril]

A shapeshifting balrog could have morphed its damaged wings into itself, and materialize new ones. Although, it would eventually run out of chances...

Gandalf: "Die sucka!!"
Balrog: "Oh no you don't. Watch this!"
Gandaf, pointing "Hahahaha naarf"
Balrog: "Noooooooo!"
Eru: "Oi! Get on widit."

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Anduril
A shapeshifting balrog could have morphed its damaged wings into itself, and materialize new ones. Although, it would eventually run out of chances...

Gandalf: "Die sucka!!"
Balrog: "Oh no you don't. Watch this!"
Gandaf, pointing "Hahahaha naarf"
Balrog: "Noooooooo!"
Eru: "Oi! Get on widit."

Now that all depends on just how quickly and how often said maia is able to change it's form. From what I read, it would seem to take a considerable expenditure of energy. Perhaps the 'rog had no reason to "dump" the wings until it was challenged by another maiar.

At which point it did so, only to find out... oops, I sure could have used those.

Or- alternately, it decided that slimey grasping tentacles were going to be a much better option, if it could trick the old idiot into breaking the bridge and grab him on the way down.

[BeardofPants]

Or it could have used the hairs on his giant goat balls.

[Blackheart]

Sheep balls?

Winged sheep balls?

I suppose a maiar could take such a form....

However... I doubt Tolkein would write about it, except in his dream diary...

"Had a bloody awful nightmare last night..."

[Ñólendil]

The Balrogs were no more a Race than were the Istari, Blackheart is right -- if only because of the number of Balrogs in existence. In the Book of Lost Tales, there was indeed an entire race of Balrogs, who were made by Melkor and were man-sized, and it's this conception of the Balrogs that is behind most of the passages concerning them in the Silmarillion as published. But after Tolkien caught a glimpse of the Balrogs in his new mythology, in the Lord of the Rings, he went to revising them. He finally decided that there were "(say) three or at most seven of them" altogether. So few can hardly be called a Race.

[Andúril]

I think I remember reading somewhere that balrogs were spirits of fire, or demons of fire, or something similar. How does this affect their ability to shange shape (as an ainur)? Saying that a maia is a spirit of fire seems to me to constrict its abilities mainly to the manipulation of fire. But we know that balrogs were able to manipulate shadow as well (don't remember where it says this...).

This is not to say that spirits of fire all turn out to look like a standard balrog. There was that Arien, I think, who was a spirit of fire, and she looked nothing like Mr balroggie (I think, although maybe she was a happy balrog with a smile...).

Is there an external element which influences their shape. For instance, the Valar choose the form of Arien, while Melkor chose the shape of the balrogs? I'm probably way off base here.

Good day. That is all. On your way.

[elendili]

I am strarting to think that Tolkein put in the dodgy "wings of shadow" to just keep generatoins of future readers amused

I think they had scary display wings that did allow flight but in a large area and that the wings couldn't work if the 'rog was falling backwards coz you can't use wings when you're upside down

Good day. That is all. On your way.

But it's just so amusing

[Radagast The Brown]

orginally posted by Blackheart
Err. Not. No more than the Maiar were a "race".

The Valaraukar were maia who were suborned by by Melkor, and while less subtle than Sauron, were still Maia, the same as Olorion or Melian.

Which is one of the reasons they were so damned scary.

I know that. I didn't mean that becuase they were a race the all were the same. But they were. they were alike. why do you think they called in the same name?

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Anduril

Is there an external element which influences their shape. For instance, the Valar choose the form of Arien, while Melkor chose the shape of the balrogs? I'm probably way off base here.

Originally posted by Radagast The Brown
I know that. I didn't mean that becuase they were a race the all were the same. But they were. they were alike. why do you think they called in the same name?

Why yes. Interest. It was what they were "drawn" to. As in the Music of the Ainur. Just as Melkor was drawn to fire (and ice) and Ulmo to water, and etc etc etc.

But just because a Balrog was "drawn" to fire and shadow doesn't negate the ability (supposedly) inherant in all the ainur. Melkor was (for a while) able to assume a pleasing form. Sauron, who, if he had an interest other than power and toadying, was likely drawn to "death" was perhaps the master of changing shapes.

Olorian most certainly wasn't drawn to "aged old man" as his field of interest, but he wore that form for many years.

But in all these cases where an ainur takes a radically different form, there is some compelling reason for them to do so.

So if you merely wanted wings, (underground for some obscure mating ritual) and you were a spirit of fire and darkness, what better to form manifest them in than fire and darkness, shadow and flame?

It's not like the balrog had to disguise himself as a cute fluffy pink bunny wabbit you know.

[Andúril]

Blackheart:
So if you merely wanted wings, (underground for some obscure mating ritual) and you were a spirit of fire and darkness, what better to form manifest them in than fire and darkness, shadow and flame?

In that case, the balrog, for some or other reason, did not want working organic wings. And from the falling-into-chasm sequence, it seems that balrogs weren't exactly the brightest of the bunch.

"Oooooo, looky at the lightssss!!"

Then again, perhaps they needed a couple minutes for transainuric-mutation recharge.

[BeardofPants]

If it is a being primarily made of fire (which Gandalf said would not help hir), and shadow, then falling down a pit is nothing... Better to be wreathed in shadow, than have some silly impratical organic wings that don't work... or is it?

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Anduril
Then again, perhaps they needed a couple minutes for transainuric-mutation recharge.

Perhaps they needed quite a bit longer. From most accounts, changing shape required some investment of energy.

Sauron musy have been pretty good at it, he's got the record for most changes in a short period of time, during the fight with Huan.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
If it is a being primarily made of fire (which Gandalf said would not help hir), and shadow, then falling down a pit is nothing... Better to be wreathed in shadow, than have some silly impratical organic wings that don't work... or is it?

Well, by most accounts, Balrogs can fly. Whether or not they need organic wings to do it with is another matter.

[Elvellon]

* Sigh *

So, are you still discussing the wings thingy?

I propose a new one, are balrogs male or female?

[elendili]

An intriguing question but I think that they're neither although Gothmog was the LORD of Balrogs so male perhaps?

[Elvellon]

Good point, but valid for Gothmog only. Besides all Ainur belonged to one sex or the other. So do you think they were all male? If so, why?

What about the Balrog of Moria?