Opinion Thread

[Billadillo]

Originally posted by Nibs
I felt the audience needed some early familiarity with Arwen. The chase and ford scene established that she's brave and what not, but moreso acquainted the audience with her far more than the book did. I almost thought to myself while reading RotK: "Arwen? Who the heck is that? Where did she come from?"

Actually, I'm totally with you on that point. Arwen's appearance in RotK threw me off the first time I read it too. I think giving her character a little more background and depth is a good idea.

I actually thought the waterfall scene with Arwen & Aragorn wasn't too bad. Even though it's not straight from the book, I think it's fairly consistant with their characters. I mean, they're in love an all, so it's reasonable to assume they would find a little "alone time".

But that still doesn't excuse the flight to the ford. That scene goes way beyond trying to give background & depth to Arwen's character. It gives us a whole new character, born from the minds of the screenwriters. And I don't like what they've come up with. Besides the fact that I think their motives were despicable (marketing, political correctness), I think the character they created is horribly cliche and overdone.

In her few minutes of screen time, she manages to steal the thunder from Aragorn, Frodo, Elrond, and Gandalf, while simultaneously making the Black Riders look like a bunch of weenies.

Giving Arwen more background? Good idea.

Making her super-Arwen? Baaad idea!

[Nibs]

Originally posted by Billadillo
But that still doesn't excuse the flight to the ford. That scene goes way beyond trying to give background & depth to Arwen's character. It gives us a whole new character, born from the minds of the screenwriters. And I don't like what they've come up with.

I have to agree with you... whatever the screenwriters portray Arwen to be like entails only their own ideas, not Tolkien's.

But now, I ask, where would a more suitable place have been? I can't see her being inserted anywhere else, except possibly more interaction within Rivendell. I'm not saying that the change he did was his only choice, but I can't think of a more suitable one...

If you can, do tell me.

[jerseydevil]

Well I don't personally mind Arwen taking Glorfindel's place. To the general public - one elf was the same as another.

What bothered me - and I've said before - was how Jackson increased her role. Sneaking up on Aragorn, racing away with ALL NINE nazgul following her, standing up to them at the Ford instead of Frodo, her "calling" the flood and finally her "saving" Frodo. Increasing her role and having her be at the ford in place of Glorfindel (maybe add some interaction between her and Aragorn) - would have been fine - but Jackson destroyed that scene in my Opinion.

[coolismo]

then your going to love the reforging of Narsil at the start of ROTK, apparently it will be the opening scene...at Rivendell. More diminishing of Aragorn who will probably be somewhere else trying to apply athelas to his confused and wounded ambition.

[Captain Stern]

Originally posted by Nibs: But now, I ask, where would a more suitable place have been? I can't see her being inserted anywhere else, except possibly more interaction within Rivendell. I'm not saying that the change he did was his only choice, but I can't think of a more suitable one...

What? Take your pick: MORE scenes with her and Aragorn in Rivendell, flashbacks. Despite what some maintain, having her in the Flight to the Ford was far from neccesary, and in my oppinion 'rape' is not too harsh a word to describe the change done to that scene.

[coolismo]

IMO there are two scenes that ruin a ruinous course through the movies. First is the ford (which I didn't mind as much as Sam having to shout ...'them wraiths are still out there..) and the duelling wizards at Orthanc. The latter will come back to haunt us as a rematch when I reckon Saruman will get impaled after a staff battle with Gandalf (Gwahir giving Howard Cossell commentary from the eye in the sky). It seems as though Narsil will be reforged in ROTK and carried by Arwen to Aragorn. These two changes dont only irk in the one film but will unravel worse in the next two....

[Agburanar]

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh! Say it ain't so! What a heap of *a@@s!

[coolismo]

pile on the agony...
http://www.aintitcool.com/section.cgi?type=Coolnews

[markedel]

My main complaint is not the ford scene-yes it weakens Frodo, but worse is the weakening Aragron. This is the closest thing to Elendil we're gonna get and eh DOUBTS he watns to be king. Aragorn doubted once in the book-whether to go after Frodo or go after Merry Pippin, however he knew what he wanted an got it.

Another thing about Arwen is weakening of theme. It doesn't hurt the movie (which was good, as a movie) but the wider use of elves means that the concept of fading elves is weakend greatly.

[coolismo]

Interestingly PJ says in an LA interview that Aragorn couldn't have pulled out Narsil because the audience would have giggled. I mean we don't want this character to look silly do we? Narsil we now be presented to A at the start of ROTK. I'm getting bored with working through the plot mess this will cause.

[Agburanar]

If I'd been Frodo, on the evidence supplied by the film I'd have told Aragorn to shove off and mind his own buisness.

[jerseydevil]

There is a fellow LOTR:FOTR movie basher - although CBG closed down his thread. Their name is - silmälasi.

Although I didn't completely hate the movie - I'd hate to lose my title of "Official LOTR:FOTR Movie Basher" to an upstart. I'm just hoping I don't have to add TT and RotK to the title. I guess I'd just have to shorten it then to - either "Jackson Hater" or just "Official LOTR Movie Basher". But we'll see how the next two movie do.

[Panther2112]

Yea the movie is not as good as the book, but that can be said about any movie based on a book. Personally I loved the movie despite some changes that were made here and there. I did not particularly care for having Arwens role expanded, but still the movie was great.

[olsonm]

How about official Nitpicker.

P.S. I mean that in a good way.

[jerseydevil]

I'm not nitpicking - Jackson changed everything other than the names of the characters and places. No real character development existed in the movie. For being LOTR - the movie fell way short of of the books. It could have been a lot better and still not have added a lot to the length.

From my post on the Arwen thread....

I was watching the Bashki version yesterday - although I have serious problems with that one too - there were certain things in there that makes me like it more. For instance - Pippin and Merry declare they know about the Ring and even though there is danger ahead - they're willing to risk everything for their friendship with Frodo. The scene at Bree with Aragorn in the Hobbit's room - he pulls out broken Narsil from it's sheath - declares who he is and isn't afraid of his heritage. I don't think I even have to mention the Flight to the Ford scene. Gandalf is much tougher in Bashki's version than in Jackson's and much more how I pictured him. He isn't whimpering beside Saruman like a whipped dog like he does in Jackson's version - he argues with him about the Ring and is forceful (even though he does get trapped in Isengard in the end). He at least has a backbone in Bashki's version and comes off as wise and strong.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by olsonm
P.S. I mean that in a good way.

Yeah, I meant it in a good way. Don't mention Bashki again.

[jerseydevil]

Well I used to really hate Bashki's version - it's sad that now Jackson has given me reasons to point out good things about it.

I know you said not to mention Bashki again - but I guess Tater is rubbing off on me (I'm either becoming evil or I already was).

[olsonm]

Well your name would indicate "already was".

Anyway, you are nitpicking. Just because the nits are HUGE and you could see them a mile off doesn't mean you had to pick them.

[jerseydevil]

Sure it does. Haven't you ever had a scab that you just couldn't leave alone?? That's exactly what Jackson's movie is - a scab. Well I guess I shouldn't say the WHOLE movie - just 50% of it. Jackson's hype is the band-aid that he uses to try getting people to accept it and not pick at it. But I'm sorry - I always pulled off my band-aids.

[olsonm]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I always pulled off my band-aids.

Ouch! Gosh, no wonder you're always in such a grumpy mood!