What is the Eye of Sauron?

[Butterbeer]

with respect Gordis you surely cannot claim that as supporting your view:
Lotesse says not work out the Way dreamed of: not work out at all, concurs he (WK) may well have considered such a move, and never actually responds to the IF whereby he (WK) DOES master the ring ( Lotesse: everyone crumbling under the rings power: you yourself say IMO he could have mastered the ring!) so that is besides the point: because clear and simple my IF proposition was IF he DID master the ring not IF the ring mastered him (W KING!)

So its a score draw at best!
anyway i thought you said IF he mastered the ring he would or could be victorious? Your point rather being he would not either consider it or attempt it?


Gordis:
Originally Posted by Butterbeer

this then is my second question: if he had and had not been obliterated even If sau did manage to destroy his ring: then would he have been victorious? You do so seem to be shying away from this latter question Nazgul!

To your latter question my answer is YES!

[Lotesse]

O.K. I think it's boiling down to semantics here - I suppose I meant not "master" the ring, but be in possesion of it for a while to whatever end, as (IMO)only Sauron had the ability to master his own tailor-made ring.

[Butterbeer]

ahh but if so what danger anyone wielding the ring against him? i think its pretty clear cut it could be wielded against him, but like you say the ring is a pretty hot potatoe: therefore this could only happen if they could master the ring: otherwise sauron would have nothing to fear!

what say you Lotese (IF and it is an IF from what you say, BUt IF he could master the One: would he be victorious?)

[Gordis]

Oh, no, Butterbeer, not again! Aren't you afraid to shy away all the others and continue as a duet?

I said the WK could master the One ring and could be victorious IF Sau had not got his nazgul ring and IF he had not been obliterated even if Sauron destroyed his ring.
But IMHO he knew that he would be obliterated when Sau destroyed his Ring. Perhaps the fact that the WK's ring (with a part of WK's fea) was in Sau's hands could prevent him from mastering the One, so, as Lotesse says, the One will master him instead. Therefore the WK would not attempt it, though he may have considered it.

You say (correct me if I am wrong) that the WK may not be able to master the One, but IF he did, he will be victorious.

Lotesse says that the WK could master the One at first, but than the One will master him instead, so he will loose.

So Lotesse's POV supports yours or mine? Neither, IMHO.

And I am still very interested to hear Maerbenn's POV!

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Thanks, Lotesse.
I believe that Mr. W. King had considered all of the above and being a sly old fox decided against trying to claim the Ring.

And what do you think about the "life support machine"? (If the Witch-King claims the One ring but Sauron destroys his nazgul ring will the WK die or not?)

I said master, not claim. I think it is a very significant difference. In Sammath Naur, Frodo claimed the Ring as his own, but he did not master it. I think if Sauron got wind that the WK was trying to master the One he would destroy the Wk's ring and the WK would be dead. If however he was to late and the WK had already mastered the One, the WK would surely 'live'.

[Butterbeer]

Td's right i believe it's if and only if with the WK, otherwise he's in big trouble as you say Gordis.

oh no not again?
Nah lets move on: i'll leave you to duel with forkbeard.

I agree anyway it was a score draw from lotesse. (thanks for that Lotesse)

(i also (innocently) look forward to the Maerbenn's POV! )

[CrazySquirrel]

Mind if I give my opinion?

Sauron was a fool to send the nazgul for the Ring. But it was only one of his many blunders.

Sure Wikkie could master the Ring and could defeat Sauron! And probably he would, if he got the ringie from the hobbits. That would be a BIG surprise for Sauron-dude. An interesting development in the book, how do you think? Of course it would be practically the same for all the good guys... I mean not the same, but worse. Because Wikkie was much smarter than Sau!

[Butterbeer]

2-1!

welcome crazy squirrel

[Gordis]

Glad you are back CrazySquirrel! Thanks for your opinion.

Re: Butterbeer. yes 2:1 Sigh!

But you could hardly expect anything else from CS!
You must remember that CS is a fervent supporter of my Lord with a rare insight in his makeup techniques and admiration for his beauty

See her quote from nazgul freedom thread:

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

And another thing: How come nobody understood that Wikkie was a nazgul from the start? Wasn't he invisible? King must appear in public. Sure he could put kingly robes, gloves, wig, crown etc, but what about his face? Tis hard to conseal. WAUUUU! I got it. Some makeup perhaps? And mascara? Could that help to make him look normal?
And yet a thought. What do you think Wikkie looked like if made visible? I guess he was quite handsome. Wasn't he king of numenor? I read somewhere numenoreans were almost like elves in appearance.
And he must look young. Because the nazgul didn't age, just faded and turned invisible. So Wikkie must have looked better than Aragorn and Boromir. Not so hot as Legolas, though

But what do you think Sauron used the Nine Rings for, CS? Couldn't he control the nazgul with them?

[Earniel]

I've taken the liberty to remove your budding RPG and post it here. That saves me the trouble in telling you to stay on topic.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

Sauron was a fool to send the nazgul for the Ring. But it was only one of his many blunders.

Sure Wikkie could master the Ring and could defeat Sauron! And probably he would, if he got the ringie from the hobbits. Because Wikkie was much smarter than Sau!

Yes, Wikky was smarter than Sau, this why he DID NOT WANT to have the One, even when he had numerous opportunities. He knew very well from his past experience that it would be more safe to stay away from such kind of jewelry.
You think it was blunders, I think it was a creative way to move the Ring farther from Sauron's reach.
But on another hand, maybe it was Sauron's intention to get the Ring withim the elve's grasp, preferably, Galadriel's. In this case Nazgul fully accomplished the task .

[Baldraf]

Sauron's eye is all of Sauron's will bent towards one thing, the ring.
Everyone sees things, memories, fantasies, etc. with their minds eye.
The inner eye. The hatred, malevolence, wanting of Sauron for one thing.
His will is bent towards getting the ring and the rest of his power from the ring. Sauron's eye is a symbol of all of these things. Sauron has the power to project this eye with his willpower. The want is so strong for the ring, that he can see and be seen looking for the ring. The eye is a product of the evil of Sauron. He lost his body and became shadow when he lost the ring. Being a user of magic, he controlled people with his mind. All he had left was this power. As the ring came closer to him and he could feel his power returning, he became more solid. So, in effect, he had a body. His body was reforming as his true powers came closer to him.

[Fat middle]

Originally Posted by Baldraf

Sauron's eye is all of Sauron's will bent towards one thing, the ring.
Everyone sees things, memories, fantasies, etc. with their minds eye.
The inner eye. The hatred, malevolence, wanting of Sauron for one thing.
His will is bent towards getting the ring and the rest of his power from the ring. Sauron's eye is a symbol of all of these things. Sauron has the power to project this eye with his willpower. The want is so strong for the ring, that he can see and be seen looking for the ring. The eye is a product of the evil of Sauron. He lost his body and became shadow when he lost the ring. Being a user of magic, he controlled people with his mind. All he had left was this power. As the ring came closer to him and he could feel his power returning, he became more solid. So, in effect, he had a body. His body was reforming as his true powers came closer to him.

Well said Baldraf. Although I'm not sure if in the last sentences you're saying that at the time of LOTR Sauron's body was just an eye. I don't agree on that.
I understand "Sauron's eye" like you say as a projection of his will. So, he appears as an eye to other people. Especially when that people have a mind that cannot held the sight of Sauron on them.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Olmer

Yes, Wikky was smarter than Sau, this why he DID NOT WANT to have the One, even when he had numerous opportunities. He knew very well from his past experience that it would be more safe to stay away from such kind of jewelry.
You think it was blunders, I think it was a creative way to move the Ring farther from Sauron's reach.
But on another hand, maybe it was Sauron's intention to get the Ring withim the elve's grasp, preferably, Galadriel's. In this case Nazgul fully accomplished the task .

I agree that the nazgul actions in the Shire,in Bree, at Weathertop and at the Ford were NOT blunders. You propose two explanations: nazgul treachery or Sauron's orders.

I think it was treachery - "a creative way to move the Ring farther from Sauron's reach".

I don't think they were acting on Sauron's orders for the following reasons:

1. The nazgul acted the same way during the early stages of the Hunt for the Ring - during their journey up and down the Anduin Vale. Sauron was VERY ANGRY for that (UT).
2. What is even more important, the nazgul acted the same way (deliberately not seeing or not telling) during Frodo's journey from Emin Muil to Orodruin. They could not have acted on Sauron's orders at that time as the ring was obviously moving to Mordor itself and it could have been easy to guess what for

BTW, Olmer, are you aware that there is an RPG in progress based on your ideas? .You are very welcome to join!

[Olmer]

gordis, you know, on the second thought, you are absolutely right. It is very obvious that they were avoiding, if possible, any involvement in the Ring's salvation.
But this doesn't exclude that they did not do Sauron's order to deliver the Ring in inconspicuous way to the elve's doorstep.
Actually I like the idea of the battle of two great minds and wills: Sauron was trying to ensnare Galadriel, but Galadriel was trying to use the Ring for her own agenda. At the end nobody won.

The RPG's news was a surprise to me.Of course I went and read what you, guys and gals, are trying to set in motion.
Thanks for invitation. Glad if my ideas will be of some help, but for participation,I afraid, I woun't have enough time.

[Butterbeer]

well just for the record i never suggested the Wk actively sought for or wanted to possess the one: he clearly didn't ( for whatever reason ) as shown by his actions: my question was hypothetically if he did master the one what would happen? and its here i think people have to be open minded ....

anyway enough of that, if you are looking for battle ot 2 great wills

Actually I like the idea of the battle of two great minds and wills: Sauron was trying to ensnare Galadriel, but Galadriel was trying to use the Ring for her own agenda. At the end nobody won.

Gordis's and crazy squirrel's RPG the fellowship of the ringwraiths will give you the opportunity not only to debate what may happen but to shape it!

So much is based on the semi- canon of Olmer that i really think you should post at least the odd small post, the least of posts, that the wraiths hand of Wraiths so fancy!


Also you would be most welcome indeed in the discussion thread.



* sees a shadowy conspiracy forming, nine shall be their number nine mooters to lure the Olmer into the RPG ....*

best
BB

[Gordis]

I gladly support Butterbeer here, Olmer!
Nine shalt be their number...
And you can play Sauron, if you like. It will give him a touch of humanity with his eternal love/hate for Galadriel

[CrazySquirrel]

You mean you have REALLY STARTED THE GAME?

[Gordis]

Dear Mods, could you please move all the posts from #56 (on page 3) till the last one into a separate thread:
"What if the Witch-King claimed the One ring?- BB's WHAT IF question"

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

While we wait for this thread to be split, I've got a responce.

I think there has has some been some very goor points for both sides of this debate, but I'm going to have to join BB's side and say the WK could have mastered the Ring.

I think some of his actions, pushing the Fellowship in a certain direction and not acting when the Ring was in the Dead Marshes, were really an attempt to get the Ring closer to Minas Morgul, where he had his fellow Nazgul, a host of armies, and it was, sort of, out of the reach of Sauron. IMO, the only thing that really stoped him from taking the Ring for himself was the fact he didn't know what to do with Sauron. I mean, as long as the Ring existed so did Sau. Maybe he was still trying to figure out a way to 'trap' Sau's spirit. Put his eye in a jar of phamaldehide and place it on a mantle in Minas Morgul or something. Remeber when Frodo was on the Secret Stair and ol' Wikkie felt him there and sent some 'guys' to check it out, what if they found Frodo, would they have taken him directly to Barad-Dur, or would they have brought him down the hill to the much closer Minus Morgul where Wikkie(I love that name btw ) was?

As to the control of the Nazgul theory, I think Sau did control the Nazzies with them but wasn't that control tied to the One? And if the WK had the One wouldn't that control shift to him? Then when he had the power to control his buddies he could then some Orcs, or even one of the Nazgul, to Barad-Dur to retrieve his ring and bring it back to him. Maybe tell Sau that they have some problems and they are there to take Wikkies ring to Mt. Doom to destroy it and then bust a right, straight to Minus Morgul laughing the whole way "Sucker!"

I'll stop here for now and wait for someone to come and crush my theories.