Why did the Ring betray Isildur?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

No, I do not think he was truely a traitor until he was seduced by Sauron. But I do think that from about 1600- 1700 he was searching for the Ring.

[Gordis]

And how could "a nazgul" in Dol Guldur help him finding the Ring? Hardly Saruman expected a nazgul to dive for it (with their water-phobia!)

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

In two ways. One, Saruman may have suspected it was Sauron long before Gandalf found out. Two, if a Nazgûl was searching for the One on behalf of Sauron then they would have had slaves searching for it. I can hardly imagine Sauron splashing around in the Gladden, shouting at the nine who all are wearing armbands!

[Gordis]

It would have taken much more than mere shouting to make a nazgul dive
Actually I agree with you, searching was surely done by lesser servants.
IMHO Sauron had no nazgul in his disposal while he lived in Dol Guldur.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

It is strange though, why didn't the White Counsil take action against Dol Guldur much earlier - millenia earlier, while Sauron was weak? Why?

Why evil fortress had been built in the middle of Elves realm and in very close proximity to Lorien and allowed to stay for 2000 years?
That's easy.The whole history of Dol Guldur suggests that it was a silent agreement amongs the Wise to consider Sauron as a counterweight of the Gondor's Empire , which already was clasping its greedy hands on far away countries. With wealth of such proportion that kids of Gondor would play with gemstones as they would do with pebbles, and with manpower many times enforced by slaves and servants from submissed countries I would't consider Gondor as harmless.
The Elves did not consider either.There was some kind of temporary peace agreement between Sauron and the Elves.

[Gordis]

Yes, you must be right, Olmer. I agree entirely for once. The White Counsil actions are very suspicious and treacherous towards their human allies. The Elves nursed a viper on their bosom as a counterweight to the expanding Mannish states. The Elves did not want to depend on any men's mercy, be it even an enlightened king of Elendil's line. They were afraid of a strong reunited Arnor and Gondor occupying all of Eriador and the Anduin Vale. In that case Imladris and Lorien would be cut from the sea and the road to Valinor.
So the Elves wanted some evil counterweight to exist. At first the Elves allowed the Witch-King to destroy all of Arnor. Yes, the Elves acted against him twice. In 1409 they were compelled to do so, as the Witch-King himself besieged Imladris. Then, of course, an elven host came (immediately!) from Lorien and defeated Angmar. But still they have not wiped Carn-Dum, they left the Witch-King be as a counterweight to Arnor. If the WK had not besieged Imladris, the scenario of 1974 would have been enacted 500 years earlier.
In 1974 the Elves did nothing to save Arnor from destruction, they came, but too late. Deliberately so, IMHO. Already in 1973 Arvedui knew that the end approaches and asked Gondor for immediate help. He must have asked the elves also. But they have waited 2 years to come.
Then Gondor defeated Angmar (with the belated help of elves) and has grown too strong, with no mannish counterweight. Then the importance of Dol Guldur for the Elves grew, as Sauron inspired raids on Gondor by wainriders (around 1945), balchots, corsairs of Umbar and so on. So Gondor has never become strong enough to occupy Eriador and Arnor.
And the Elves acted against Sauron only when he became dangerous for themselves (!) and when Saruman learned he was looking in the river for the Ring.
In UT there is an enlightening passage. Gandalf tells Frodo:

Gandalf then explained to them his doubts at that time concerning Sauron's first move, and his fears for Lórien and Rivendell .."That is why, to jump forward, I ...persuaded the Council to attack Dol Guldur first, before he attacked Lórien. We did, and Sauron fled. But he was always ahead of us in his plans. I must confess that I thought he really had retreated again, and that we might have another spell of watchful peace. But it did not last long. Sauron decided to take the next step. He returned at once to Mordor, and in ten years he declared himself.
"Then everything grew dark. And yet that was not his original plan; and it was in the end a mistake. Resistance still had somewhere where it could take counsel free from the Shadow. How could the Ringbearer have escaped, if there had been no Lórien or Rivendell? And those places might have fallen, I think, if Sauron had thrown all his power against them first, and not spent more than half of it in the assault on Gondor.

So the White counsel nursed a viper and then sent it to wage war on Gondor. Who cares about those mortals?
Also, IMHO Elrond supported Aragorn's line for a thousand years not so much out of kindness, but to have an ace in his sleeve against the Stewards. With that ace the Elves could organize a civil war in Gondor any time.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

Yes, you must be right, Olmer. I agree entirely for once.

Why? Most of the time you are in tune with my thoughts. We disagree only on details.

Originally Posted by gordis

They were afraid of a strong reunited Arnor and Gondor occupying all of Eriador and the Anduin Vale.
In 1974 the Elves did nothing to save Arnor from destruction, they came, but too late. Deliberately so, IMHO. Already in 1973 Arvedui knew that the end approaches and asked Gondor for immediate help. He must have asked the elves also. But they have waited 2 years to come.

And the Elves acted against Sauron only when he became dangerous for themselves (!)

Exactly! Somewhere in the forum I wrote the similar thoughts.
In 1973 of the Third Age a “messages (not just one) came to Gondor that Arthedain was in a great straits“.The end of North-kingdom was not in the best interests of the king Earnil, for he wished that realms of Elendil shouldn’t be estranged and vowed to send an aid when they have need. And he kept his word and sent his son Earnur with a fleet as swiftly as he could, and the fleet arrived to the Grey Havens.
But why the fleet and why it took 2 (!) years to bring an army by ships, what kind of hindrance prevented them to bring the great cavalry of Gondor much more sooner by the straight and paved Great Road? For Boromir, in spite of his wandering and lost of his horse, it took just 110 days.
I can’t see any reason but an assumption that the Gondorians had been “advised� to bring the army to the elven harbors, where it could be “enpowered “ with whatever force (not that much) the elves could gather. Then the the arrival of the fleet was cleverly keept delayed by, I have no doubt, the same “advisers� till the Witch King overrun Arthedain.
Then much later we see the same elegant passage of the elve ‘s politics.
In 3429 of the Second Age Sauron attacks Gondor. Anarion stays defending Osgiliath and Isildur sails to Lindon seeking help, because they “knew that unless help should come this kingdom would not long stand� (Sil.)
In 3430 the Last Alliance has been formed, and not because of the dire need of neighbor in distress, but because “they( means the elves also) perceived that Sauron would grow too strong and would overcome all his enemies one by one. � (Sil.)
In 3431 they gathered a great host of Elves and Men , which marched east of Middle -earth and then… “ they HALTED FOR A WHILE in Imladris � (Sil.) (??)
How long is this “a while� - TWO YEARS(!!)
In 3434 the army finally crosses the Misty Mountains and besieges Barad-Dur.
Concerning that the plea for help came 5(!) years ago, what was holding them from sending already gathered the “great host� to divert Sauron’s army from struggling Gondor, instead of waiting for another 3 years? Nothing comes to mind, but that it was the secret hopes that Gondor won’t last for so long.

The quote of Gandalf’s slip-out is one of few discoveries discrediting the elve’s politics . Real gem.

Originally Posted by gordis

Also, IMHO Elrond supported Aragorn's line for a thousand years not so much out of kindness, but to have an ace in his sleeve against the Stewards. With that ace the Elves could organize a civil war in Gondor any time.

So , you finally agree with me that Elrond has had( or has to carry on) his own and not so noble agendas.
And he had to make sure that in spite of wars and unrests Isildur’s line has never get broken.
What do you think of Halbarad?

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Then Gondor defeated Angmar (with the belated help of elves) and has grown too strong, with no mannish counterweight

The quote is actually the elves defeated Angmar (with the belated help of the Gondorians). The elves weren't strong enough to defeat Angmars forces alone, they needed allies to do so, but Gondor was also at war at that time.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by olmer

Most of the time you are in tune with my thoughts. We disagree only on details. .

I disagree with you on a very important issue: the nature of the One Ring. I believe in a canonical version of it. I believe Sauron really wanted it. So we have to disagree on all the Dark side motivations. And you have not accepted my nazgul-freedom argumentation, which has vexed me a little, I must admit . I thought you were broad-minded enough for it . However, you have not provided any facts proving that Sauron used the nazgul in any way before TA 2951.

As for the elven policy, you are right, it stinks. As any REAL policy stinks (not a fairy-tale one). Elves minded their own interests only, to a complete disregard of mannish interests.

Originally Posted by olmer

But why the fleet and why it took 2 (!) years to bring an army by ships, what kind of hindrance prevented them to bring the great cavalry of Gondor much more sooner by the straight and paved Great Road? For Boromir, in spite of his wandering and lost of his horse, it took just 110 days. I can’t see any reason but an assumption that the Gondorians had been “advised� to bring the army to the elven harbors, where it could be “enpowered “ with whatever force (not that much) the elves could gather. Then the the arrival of the fleet was cleverly keept delayed by, I have no doubt, the same “advisers� till the Witch King overrun Arthedain.

I doubt that king Earnil had any elven advisors. Gondor seems totally estranged from elves by this time. Sure, the help could have been sent by land and in time, if Earnil wished it. I suppose he himself wanted Arvedui out of the game, along with all his brood, if possible. Arvedui was a pretender for Gondor throne, and his claim was good. And Earnil had a single son and not too interested in women to give much hope for grandchildren. So Earnil simply waited for the Witch-King to do the dirty work for him.

Originally Posted by olmer

The quote of Gandalf’s slip-out is one of few discoveries discrediting the elve’s politics . Real gem.

Yes it is. I am amazed how well the elvish PR works on all of us. We read, but we do not really understand. The image of oh-so-holy and oh-so-fair elves cannot be marred by anything. Even in LOTR there is enough data to question the Elven-holiness. I still remember reading the scene with Gildor for a first time, many-many years ago. A group of seasoned Elven warriors meets three frightened hobbits (they should seem like children to them - both in size and in age). They learn that the hobbits are pursued by the most terrible creatures that one can have a misfortune to meet. Any normal men would have taken them to safety, at least to Buckland. But no, the elves are busy singing. So they leave them to fend for themselves with a following words: ‘I do not know for what reason the Enemy is pursuing you, but I perceive that he is - strange indeed though that seems to me. And I warn you that peril is now both before you and behind you, and upon either side.’ Nice guy, this Gildor, isn't he? I thought at that time: It is outright criminal. I think, penal codes of most countries contain something about "Leaving in danger"... But no, the hobbits do not mind: ‘They seem a bit above my likes and dislikes, so to speak,’ answered Sam slowly. ‘It don’t seem to matter what I think about them. They are quite different from what I expected - so old and young, and so gay and sad, as it were.’ And the readers are lulled by elven beauty and wisdom along with poor Sam.

Originally Posted by olmer

So , you finally agree with me that Elrond has had( or has to carry on) his own and not so noble agendas.
And he had to make sure that in spite of wars and unrests Isildur’s line has never get broken.
What do you think of Halbarad?

Well, helping Aragorn's family WAS noble, even if it had other advantages. Murdering Isildur was a base treachery; I still don't think Erlond could do this.
Halbarad? Aragorn's kinsman and second-in command? What is wrong with him?

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

The quote is actually the elves defeated Angmar (with the belated help of the Gondorians). The elves weren't strong enough to defeat Angmars forces alone, they needed allies to do so, but Gondor was also at war at that time.

Sorry, it is wrong, I suggest you check the facts before replying.

'But when Eärnur came to the Grey Havens there was joy and great wonder among both Elves and Men. So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage... Then CÃ*rdan summoned all who would come to him, from Lindon or Arnor, and when all was ready the host crossed the Lune and marched north to challenge the Witch-king of Angmar. .....Then the Witch-king, with all that he could gather from the wreck, fled northwards, seeking his own land of Angmar. Before he could gain the shelter of Carn Dûm the cavalry of Gondor overtook him with Eärnur riding at their head. At the same time a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell" (LOTR, Appendix A )

So the Elves joined the fight AFTER the overwhelming force came from Gondor.
Also there is no mention in the Tale of Years of Gondor being at war with anybody else at the time.

[Olmer]

Originally Posted by gordis

I believe Sauron really wanted it .

To meet you half-way...I believe Sauron really wanted to know for sure of its whereabout, othervise he would be more persistant in his search.

Originally Posted by gordis

And you have not accepted my nazgul-freedom argumentation...

Why? I liked your argumentation. Very well thought through and quite believable.I had nothing to contradict with.

Originally Posted by gordis

I doubt that king Earnil had any elven advisors. I suppose he himself wanted Arvedui out of the game, along with all his brood, if possible.

Let say, not an advisers , but "coordinators". Since Earnil brought his fleet to the Grey Havens, I would say he had to contact some elvish authotities about the possibility to accomodate such armada. Could it be that this autorities were delaying his arrival under different excuses?
On another hand, I agree that Earnil has had his private ideas in terms how to help the King of Arthedain, and the elves delays were suited him as an excuse for his delay, otherwise what was holding him to send the help sooner.

Originally Posted by gordis

I am amazed how well the elvish PR works on all of us. We read, but we do not really understand.
Even in LOTR there is enough data to question the Elven-holiness.
I still remember reading the scene with Gildor for a first time, many-many years ago...

The whole elves history in Silmarillion shows to us that the elves are not-so-holly. Then what happened in LOTR? The same persons all of the sudden got a nimbus, because the story was told from the different chronicler's point of view.
The understanding comes with scrupulous comparison of the data and careful reading of every sentence.

Yeh, Gildor's unassistedness struck me as too strange too. But when I read more carefully, I found that his unvillingness to help was motivated by the avoidance of meddling in wizards's plans (I wrote about in the discussion "Three is company"), and the second is that they don't give a flying pig about "the ways of hobbits, or another creature upon earth.� Quite sobering revelation for elves-worshipers .

Originally Posted by gordis

Well, helping Aragorn's family WAS noble, even if it had other advantages.
Halbarad? What is wrong with him?

Helping is always noble, but in this case there was more advantages than nobility.
About Halbarad more detailed is in the Halbarad - next to kin

Originally Posted by gordis

Murdering Isildur was a base treachery; I still don't think Erlond could do this.

It was a base treachery even without murder, but elven history seems contains not just one example of betrayal.
He probably had no plans to murder Isildur, he was sent to oversee and maybe "persuade" Isildur by this way that the Ring "should go to the Keepers of the Three" But *** happens. Unfortunately, Isildur got too attached to the Ring and decided to keep it away from the Keepers even if it cost him his life.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by olmer

Why? I liked your argumentation. Very well thought through and quite believable.I had nothing to contradict with.

I must have misunderstood you, sorry . I am glad

Originally Posted by olmer

About Halbarad more detailed is in the Halbarad - next to kin

I have posted my answer in Why Aragorn? tread.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by olmer

On another hand, I agree that Earnil has had his private ideas in terms how to help the King of Arthedain, and the elves delays were suited him as an excuse for his delay, otherwise what was holding him to send the help sooner.

I should say the delay with help was both in Elvish and Gondor's interests. But a different delay.

The Elves wanted the Witch-King to conquer all of Arnor, and to build a strong "evil" state as a serious counter-weight to the powerful Gondor. Than Gondor and Arnor would be constantly at war with each other and nobody would give the Elves a second thought. And in case if Arnor started to win, the Elves could help Gondor a little (earning their gratitude). In case if Gondor started to win, they could let Sauron send some wainriders or balkhots to their eastern borders. With that policy the Elves would be able to enjoy the timeless peace and beauty of their realms unmolesed by men for indefinite time..
So they needed a serious delay (a hundred of years?) to let the "highly professional King" Witchy to rise Arnor to strength and prosperity.

Earnur, for his part, needed Arvedui's line ended, but by no means wanted to let the Witch-King rule Arnor afterwards. He was no fool to delay too long, otherwise Arnor could prove to become too large a morsel to swallow. I think he set his fleet out at the very news of Arvedui's death in Forochel.

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by gordis

Sorry, it is wrong, I suggest you check the facts before replying.

Cirdan of Lune and Elrond, with belated help sent by sea from King Eärnil, defeat Angmar. The Witch-King is overthrown and his realm destroyed. He flies south and comes at last to Mordor.

Taken from the Heirs of Elendil, HoME 12

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Telcontar_Dunedain

Taken from the Heirs of Elendil, HoME 12

Please forgive me Telcontar!
Gordis

[CAB]

Dang. I thought I had come up with a new idea, checked around, and Olmer had beat me to it by three years, probably more. Oh well.

I agree with Olmer that it is very likely that the Elves were involved with Isildur's death and the loss of the Ring, though I differ with him in the details. This may seem terribly wrong and out of character for them, but look at the situation. By taking the Ring, Isildur has effectively made himself far and away the single greatest threat in Middle Earth. He leads the remnants of a people who, due to corruption by Sauron, had recently (it would be like yesterday to the Elves) caused the very nature of the world to be changed. Also the holders of the three rings could not become wielders while Isildur held the One.

It seems probable that Isildur would never again be as vulnerable as he was on the road back to Arnor. The Elves knew that eventually he would become a terrible tyrant. In order to protect themselves they had to act. To me, there is nothing particularly evil about this, assuming the more peaceful means of getting the Ring from Isildur had been attempted first (I believe they probably were). Leaders of people are sometimes forced to make such difficult decisions, in this case a few deaths now vs. countless more later.

I disagree with Olmer that the Elves attacked the men of Arnor themselves. Whether they could have hidden the signs of their involvement from the searchers that would eventually come, I can't say, but the Elves surely could not hide such an ambush from the Palantiri. Probably, Isildur's journey north was being tracked by his people through the Seeing Stones. (This I learned from Gordis and is part of one of the best Tolkien's world theories I have ever read. I hope I can convince her to post it here at Entmoot.) To me, the best answer is that the Elves somehow "tipped off" a suitably large and well positioned orc force about the Arnoreans' march.

This may explain the ambush, but still leaves open the question of Isildur's death and the One's loss. The Ring ending up in the river is incredibly lucky for the Elves. Maybe there were Elvish hunters observing the battle from a distance. They saw Isildur's disappearance and tracked him. This possibility had been anticipated. They knew that those possibly watching via the Palantiri couldn't follow an invisible man, and so, would not see them either. When Isildur was far enough away from the battle and the time was right, the hunters did what they had to do, and the Elves gained an extra three thousand years in Middle Earth.

[Valandil]

Wow CAB... you've joined the ranks of the Conspiracy Theorists!

And it sure presents a different view from the commonest ones about Elves. Makes them more... perilous... and having little regard for Men. But even that's in keeping with the way they guard their borders, for instance (at Lorien in LOTR, and by imprisoning some wandering Dwarves in The Hobbit).

Interesting...

And (by that theory - I'm not on board with it yet), they sort of allow themselves the concession that there will still be a descendant of Elendil and Isildur to take the thone of Arnor, since there was still a young one under Elrond's care back in Imladris. He just wouldn't have the Ring.

OTOH though - so little was probably known then about the potential influence of the One Ring on a new bearer, or what power someone besides Sauron wielding it might have - since none other than Sauron had ever had it up to that time. You could say, of course, that the Elves wouldn't want to take that chance...

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Wow CAB... you've joined the ranks of the Conspiracy Theorists!

Hmm…I thought I was already a member (at least a little bit, I think I'm pretty open minded).

Originally Posted by Valandil

And it sure presents a different view from the commonest ones about Elves. Makes them more... perilous... and having little regard for Men. But even that's in keeping with the way they guard their borders, for instance (at Lorien in LOTR, and by imprisoning some wandering Dwarves in The Hobbit).

I would argue that it is a much more realistic view. Like Gordis (as she pointed out in this very thread), I prefer to look at Tolkien's work from a "historical" perspective. Looked at this way, the Elves have to be considered as real living / breathing entities. Real living / breathing entities have to look after their own interests in order to survive. Looking after one's own interests sometimes involves doing things that could be considered morally wrong (such as destroying a future threat before that threat can destroy you). That is the way of the real world, and I like to consider Middle Earth as if it were the real world (for the same reason as Gordis, it's more interesting).

Originally Posted by Valandil

so little was probably known then about the potential influence of the One Ring on a new bearer, or what power someone besides Sauron wielding it might have - since none other than Sauron had ever had it up to that time. You could say, of course, that the Elves wouldn't want to take that chance...

I wonder how much was already known. How did they know so much later? Gollum's case certainly showed them some things, but why did they say the Ring was a greater threat to the powerful? Only one powerful person aside from Sauron held the Ring, right? I would guess that Isildur was already showing signs of what he would become if he was allowed to keep the One. The histories involving these signs were probably cleaned up by those recording them for various reasons (Numenoreans = show only glorious side of great King, Elves = don't draw suspicion on selves concerning Isildur's death by showing how important that death was).

[Valandil]

What's interesting too, in an ironic sense, would be how Aragorn/Elessar abhored the fact that Saruman had apparently left the bones of his ancestor Isildur to rot where they lay, when he found the Elendilmir (in the note of the UT account of "Disaster of the Gladden"). How would he have reacted to think that the Elves had basically PUT those bones there? The very people who had raised him... who had been his lifelong allies... into which he had even married!

[CAB]

Originally Posted by Valandil

What's interesting too, in an ironic sense, would be how Aragorn/Elessar abhored the fact that Saruman had apparently left the bones of his ancestor Isildur to rot where they lay, when he found the Elendilmir (in the note of the UT account of "Disaster of the Gladden"). How would he have reacted to think that the Elves had basically PUT those bones there? The very people who had raised him... who had been his lifelong allies... into which he had even married!

Probably not something he would want to think about too much. But, having said that, I don't believe that Aragorn would be as surprised as many would think. As you said, he was raised among these people. He saw them as they truly were (I'm not arguing they were evil here, but real, live beings) not as the storybook images we have.

[Valandil]

Perhaps, on reflection, he'd even see it as a better fate for his ancestor, than the alternative...