What makes you thankful to live in a free country?

[Elemmírë]

This is not happening... I am not being drawn into this thread against my will...

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Why wouldn't you say half the pledge let's see...

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

So you have a problem with the "indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all" too?

Yep.

Indivisible. Incapable of undergoing division. I wasn't there, of course, but I've heard from pretty good sources that the Civil War occurred. And we're hardly a united country half the time... Not a unitary one or what have you... Not that there's anything wrong with that, don't get me wrong.

With liberty and justice for all. Except, of course, for Japanese Americans during WWII, and Native Americans during almost any time.

The "under God" was put into the pledge after WWII - that is all. It was in response to atheist soviet union. Schools before that and even after that required prayers in school though. So I don't know why you think that putting "under God" into the pledge would have been a big thing.

Not a big thing. Just unnecessary. And the atheist Soviet Union is, after all, no more.

yeah - they have - but our passed hasn't. The fact that the US was founded on Christian prinicibles has not changed,. You may not like it - but it's fact.

Ah, yes! Let's hold to the past no matter what! Why was it, again, that they banned the Confederate flag in the capital of South Carolina?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Well, I personally don't much care for USAmerican either. It's somewhat annoying to me. I don't normally get so vehement about things as Jersey does. Euro-whiner bothers me a good deal more then USAmerican does. USAmerican is a rather pointless geographical statement. Euro-whiner is an attack both on the speaker and on Europe in general.

It's EXTREMELY annoying to me. It's more than annoying though - it ****ing pisses me off that someone just can decide "oh I don't like what you are called - so think I'll just call you this - even if it does piss you off"

As for the term Euro-whiner, oh well. USAmerican after I have asked and other have even asked in the passed for it not to be used - continues to be used.

I would dearly like you to stay, Hemel. Your posts are splendid and I have greatly enjoyed reading them. Please stay.

It's her choice to stay. I don't have a problem with Hemel - I have a problem with USAmerican. She wants to continue using it - I will continue to bitch about it.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Ah, yes! Let's hold to the past no matter what! Why was it, again, that they banned the Confederate flag in the capital of South Carolina?

Since when is the Confederacy written into the Declaration of Independence?

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

You can all basically screw off really. it'sd fine that you can careless about America - but I do. So **** it. You guys can say whatever the hell you want. By the way - it's nice that on Washington's Birthday that we have to argue about us being called Americans. But I suppose most of you didn't even know it was Washington's Birthday - since they changed the damn holiday to just "presidents day".

I DID know it was Washington's Birthday. It also is my mother's birthday. Maybe you can give people a little more credit. Hmmm?

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Since when is the Confederacy written into the Declaration of Independence?

Lief, it was a response to JD's claim that the word "God" should be kept in the Pledge because of our past. At least, that's what it seems to me that he is claiming.

The Confederacy is as much a part of us now as the Constitution or the Cold War. It's not in the Declaration, but neither is the Pledge of Allegiance, especially not with the word "God" in it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

This is not happening... I am not being drawn into this thread against my will...

Yep.

Indivisible. Incapable of undergoing division. I wasn't there, of course, but I've heard from pretty good sources that the Civil War occurred. And we're hardly a united country half the time... Not a unitary one or what have you... Not that there's anything wrong with that, don't get me wrong.

With liberty and justice for all. Except, of course, for Japanese Americans during WWII, and Native Americans during almost any time

So in other words - because of some stains on pour history - you refuse to believe in the goals of the country. As for indivisible - yes there was a civil war - you might also know that we retained our union. "United we stand, divided we fall" you might have heard of that term.

As for the indians - they are now free to do whatever they wish. The EU state which at one time was known as the country of Britain did a hell of a lot to them before we were even a country.

Not a big thing. Just unnecessary. And the atheist Soviet Union is, after all, no more.

Maybe in your eyes it was unnecessary - but I guess in the people who put it in there it was. I'm atheist - I can care less about it. I actual;ly like it in there though - because it is part of the heritage. Doesn't mean you believe in god - for thing it can be any god you wish.

Ah, yes! Let's hold to the past no matter what! Why was it, again, that they banned the Confederate flag in the capital of South Carolina?

The flag wasn't banned from the capital of South Carolina - it was banned from the Government Building. What's wrong with celebrating a heritage? Are you one of the people who thinkgs of nothignn but fireworks and picnics on 4th of July? If it wasn't for the Americans before us - you would have no country which you seem to have such distain for.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Indivisible. Incapable of undergoing division. I wasn't there, of course, but I've heard from pretty good sources that the Civil War occurred. And we're hardly a united country half the time... Not a unitary one or what have you... Not that there's anything wrong with that, don't get me wrong.

With liberty and justice for all. Except, of course, for Japanese Americans during WWII, and Native Americans during almost any time.

We are striving for an ideal, ElemmÃ*rë. We believe in that ideal and strive to make it reality. Remember the Civil Rights Movement, the Womens' Rights Movement. The Civil War is an ultimate example of what we will do to accomplish that goal unity. When you swear an oath to the United States, relating these different things, you are not affirming that it is the pinnacle of justice, liberty and union. You swear to the republic for which our country stands, a republic of liberty, justice and union. That is the ideal you are swearing to, and you will do your utmost to make it so. We aren't all forced to declare the magnificence of our country in the Oath; we are declaring the ideal we are to strive for. Our country has had successes as well as failures. It is not perfect, and few of those who swear the oath think it is perfect. Those three different aspects: Unity, Justice, and Liberty are what you declare you believe in and desire to create and maintain.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Lief, it was a response to JD's claim that the word "God" should be kept in the Pledge because of our past. At least, that's what it seems to me that he is claiming.

Please - tell me where I actually say it should be kept in? I just saiud I don't have a problem with it - and if you wish to not say that part - that's your business. You have made it clear that you think that the country is crap because of our soiled past and therefore you have this hard time with saying half the pledge. I'm proud to be American and this thread has now forced me to take out my American avatars again. No more Mr Cute Devil.

The Confederacy is as much a part of us now as the Constitution or the Cold War. It's not in the Declaration, but neither is the Pledge of Allegiance, especially not with the word "God" in it.

The Confederacy isn't a part of the US - it's part of the South, To give you a bit of history lesson - the US defeated the Confederacy (which was a seperate government at the time). So the only part that is the US history is that fact that the Confederacy was defeated. There is no requirement to allow a defeated nation to be allowed to fly their flag on your soil.

[Embladyne]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

The Confederacy isn't a part of the US - it's part of the South, To give you a bit of history lesson - the US defeated the Confederacy (which was a seperate government at the time).

Hey, thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid that I was going to have to post my own history lesson pretty soon, here.
It's not very clearly taught that the civil war was very much about who held governmental power.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We are striving for an ideal, ElemmÃ*rë. We believe in that ideal and strive to make it reality. Remember the Civil Rights Movement, the Womens' Rights Movement. The Civil War is an ultimate example of what we will do to accomplish that goal unity. When you swear an oath to the United States, relating these different things, you are not affirming that it is the pinnacle of justice, liberty and union. You swear to the republic for which our country stands, a republic of liberty, justice and union. That is the ideal you are swearing to, and you will do your utmost to make it so. We aren't all forced to declare the magnificence of our country in the Oath; we are declaring the ideal we are to strive for. Our country has had successes as well as failures. It is not perfect, and few of those who swear the oath think it is perfect. Those three different aspects: Unity, Justice, and Liberty are what you declare you believe in and desire to create and maintain.

That would be too difficult to think about the progres of America. It' smuch easier to bitch and moan about the bad things America has done in it's past. The Euro's are great at that. Throw stones at America - while they happily celebrate their past. Who gets bitched about for slavery? America does - not that it wasn't here way before we were even a country. Brazil had far more slaves than America did. Britain and France were huge in the Slave trade, as were the Africans themselves. But who gets bitched at over it - America. Who cares that we fought a bloody civil war to put an end to - or that many of the founding fathers - including slave owners - wished to put an end to it at the founding of the country.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Lief, it was a response to JD's claim that the word "God" should be kept in the Pledge because of our past. At least, that's what it seems to me that he is claiming.

The Confederacy is as much a part of us now as the Constitution or the Cold War. It's not in the Declaration, but neither is the Pledge of Allegiance, especially not with the word "God" in it.

The Declaration of Independence clearly says "We are endowed by our Creator with certain inallienable rights . . ."

Christianity is a root part of our history. The people that came to America on the Mayflower were Christians. Our founding fathers were Christians. Belief in God from the beginning of our country has been a part of our government and its people. So maintaining the word "God" is a part of our national heritage. It is a part of what our country has always been, even if in the Pledge of Allegiance it was added in later. The Confederacy is not something we are proud of. The Declaration of Independence is. The Pledge of Allegiance is.

[Insidious Rex]

Well aint karma a bitch.

Hypocrisy does not hold long as we have seen here. And the tyranny of and censure by the minority is not lost on the intelligent posters that we have here. Of all people to pick on unfairly but Hemel? How sad...

Hemel you may call me a USAmerican if you wish. I dont find insult in it. I accept your genuine statement that it is not meant as an insult. You have your gentleness of character and open ever unhostile approach to posting to back that up with as far as Im concerned. Of course you may not be able to if your wording is clipped each and every time you speak. Alas...

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So in other words - because of some stains on pour history - you refuse to believe in the goals of the country. As for indivisible - yes there was a civil war - you might also know that we retained our union. "United we stand, divided we fall" you might have heard of that term.

Indeed I have heard the term.

No. I'm not refusing the believe in the goals of the country. I'm just refusing to claim that they have been realised, because they most certainly have not.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

As for the indians - they are now free to do whatever they wish. The EU state which at one time was known as the country of Britain did a hell of a lot to them before we were even a country.

I'm not defending Britain, JD. I know what they did. I also know what we did.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Maybe in your eyes it was unnecessary - but I guess in the people who put it in there it was. I'm atheist - I can care less about it. I actual;ly like it in there though - because it is part of the heritage. Doesn't mean you believe in god - for thing it can be any god you wish.

You might not have a problem with it, but some people do. I am not an atheist, and I have a problem with it. Is this another case of supression of the minority again, I wonder?

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

The flag wasn't banned from the capital of South Carolina - it was banned from the Government Building. What's wrong with celebrating a heritage? Are you one of the people who thinkgs of nothignn but fireworks and picnics on 4th of July? If it wasn't for the Americans before us - you would have no country which you seem to have such distain for.

Government building. Sorry. At least I narrowed it down from just "South Carolina". I personally think it's a shame that it was banned. I was using it as an example of a situation in which the past seems to have been discarded, in part. And no, I am not one of the people who thinks of only fireworks and picnics.

Where's the disdain, JD? Should I show my loyalty by claiming that everything in our past is cheery and perfect? Clearly it's not, and I don't see disdain in admitting that sometimes we have been less than wonderful.

I have great respect for some of the Americans before us. Washington, Jefferson, the Roosevelts... And others I think should have been shot at birth.

[Embladyne]

Also note that the people who came to the U.S. to get rich didn't really care much for independance from the imperial powers that were colonizing the continent. They felt that these imperial powers could protect their monetary property much more effectively.
Not all people who were fighting for thier ideals were poor, though, like I said, I am making HUGE generalizations.

(pointless post)

[Meriadoc Brandybuck]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

With liberty and justice for all. Except, of course, for Japanese Americans during WWII, and Native Americans during almost any time

Welcome to California where most of the Indians (or should I say Native Americans) here own casinos because they were given money by the government because of the past.

Originally Posted by JD

This thread is so you can give examples of why you are happy to live in a free country.

And let's KEEP to that!
I am happy to live in a free country because...

[Elemmírë]

I'm really behind in this thread...

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Please - tell me where I actually say it should be kept in? I just saiud I don't have a problem with it - and if you wish to not say that part - that's your business. You have made it clear that you think that the country is crap because of our soiled past and therefore you have this hard time with saying half the pledge. I'm proud to be American and this thread has now forced me to take out my American avatars again. No more Mr Cute Devil.

You implied it should be kept in. I put a disclaimer in my statements in the hopes that you wouldn't be riled up if I had misunderstood. Apparently it didn't work.

JD. I DON'T THINK THE COUNTRY IS CRAP. There are parts of our history to be proud of, and parts to be ashamed of. It's the same as in any other country. And actually, now that I think about it, I have a hard time saying all of the pledge... hm.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

The Confederacy isn't a part of the US - it's part of the South, To give you a bit of history lesson - the US defeated the Confederacy (which was a seperate government at the time). So the only part that is the US history is that fact that the Confederacy was defeated. There is no requirement to allow a defeated nation to be allowed to fly their flag on your soil.

I'm trying not to be patronising here. I know what happened in the Civil War. And the whole thing is part of our history. And you're right, there's no requirement to allow a defeat nation to fly its flag... There's also no requirement to say "God" in the pledge.

Lief ~ It was a bad example.

[edited] Merry, you're right. All the casinos in the world don't erase the past, though. Goodbye, thread. Hm... goodbye Moot, too... I have homework to do!

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

Indeed I have heard the term.

No. I'm not refusing the believe in the goals of the country. I'm just refusing to claim that they have been realised, because they most certainly have not.

And to an idealist they will never be realized because nothing in life will ever be 100% perfect. So I guess you have the sad life ahead of you.

I'm not defending Britain, JD. I know what they did. I also know what we did.

I also know what we did. I just don't live in the idealistic world that you do where I feel everything will be perfect. But working to those goals - with remembering what is in the pledge of allegiance helps. By the way - Indians aren't Americans. They do have more rights than many countries though - such as in Australia who has a lot of problems with their native people.

You might not have a problem with it, but some people do. I am not an atheist, and I have a problem with it. Is this another case of supression of the minority again, I wonder?

How is supression of the minority? First off in the democracy - the majority rulesand in America the minority are protected. But you are free not to say it if you wish - but you wish to take the words out. That is not democracy.

Government building. Sorry. At least I narrowed it down from just "South Carolina". I personally think it's a shame that it was banned. I was using it as an example of a situation in which the past seems to have been discarded, in part. And no, I am not one of the people who thinks of only fireworks and picnics.

And what right does the State of South Carolina have to be flying a flag of a defeated country who was at war with the US? It's isn't the US history - it's the south and the slave owners history.

Where's the disdain, JD? Should I show my loyalty by claiming that everything in our past is cheery and perfect? Clearly it's not, and I don't see disdain in admitting that sometimes we have been less than wonderful.

NO - you don't have claim that everything was perfect in the US. But the thing is that you don't even acknowledge the goals of America because they haven't been realized. That to me is a sign of disdain.

I have great respect for some of the Americans before us. Washington, Jefferson, the Roosevelts... And others I think should have been shot at birth.

That sounds really good after the little speech you gave. So you think that people should have been shot at birth.

[Elemmírë]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

So you think that people should have been shot at birth.

Yep. Just one though. Andrew Jackson. And it was half a joke, since by the time anyone knew what a snake he was, it was far past birth.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by ElemmÃ*rë

You implied it should be kept in. I put a disclaimer in my statements in the hopes that you wouldn't be riled up if I had misunderstood. Apparently it didn't work.

I do think it should be kept in - I think it does no harm to have it in. It doesn't go against the Constitution or anything. The MAJORITY want it in and no one is making you say it anyway.

JD. I DON'T THINK THE COUNTRY IS CRAP. There are parts of our history to be proud of, and parts to be ashamed of. It's the same as in any other country. And actually, now that I think about it, I have a hard time saying all of the pledge... hm.

Well then I guess you don't really believe in what this country stands for then. Yes - there are bad moments in the history of the US. But at least we don't have to live with the shame of Hitler, Napoleon and Stalin and others.

I'm trying not to be patronising here. I know what happened in the Civil War. And the whole thing is part of our history. And you're right, there's no requirement to allow a defeat nation to fly its flag... There's also no requirement to say "God" in the pledge.

And no one makes you sayd "god" in the pledge. You see how that works, You are FREE to say or not to say it.

[edited] Merry, you're right. All the casinos in the world don't erase the past, though. Goodbye, thread. Hm... goodbye Moot, too... I have homework to do!

I know many indians - I know how many feel. How many do you know personally? Have you ever been on a reserve? I've stay on one all the time with my friend trish. It's the small minority of Indians who complain about the past, instead of working toward the future. It's the same with blacks.

[Count Comfect]

Indians aren't Americans

Just a minor point, but they are. Well, not India Indians, but Amerinds/Native Americans/Indians, whatever they choose to be called. They are dual citizens of the United States and their native tribe/nation. Or at least most of them are.

And much as it pains me to admit, I'm thankful to live in a country in which people can have a really acrimonious argument without anyone having to be thrown in jail or sued or anything like that.