400 Held Hostage in Russian School

[Telcontar_Dunedain]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Yes, that was exactly my point.

However, we don't know, since the openly separatist candidate was barred from standing in their recent elections.

I dont think thats right. If the Russians reely wanted to be be sepatated from Chechnya then they could have voted for him/her if not then they wouldn't. Either way they get what they want.

[The Gaffer]

Sorry, I have no idea what you're saying here.

The elections I referred to were in Chechnya, for their equivalent of a state governor. Basically, the ballot was rigged so that a pro-Moscow candidate won. International observers concluded that they were not free and fair elections. Source: BBC

The question is not whether the Russians want to separate from Chechnya (they clearly don't), but whether the Chechnyans want to separate from Russia.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

yeah - Northern ireland is peaceful now - as is Britain. It is however interesting how you say that terrorists resort to violence when not all the population stands behind them. Hmmmm - then might that mean that most of Checnya does not want to break free of Russia? I agree that Britain did not raze the towns of Northern Ireland - but there was PLENTY of violence.

And of that I say, JD, you know nothing of Ulster or its current problems, so dont act as though you do. When was the last time YOU were in Derry passing through checkpoints? At least Gaff is in the ball park talking about Eire, and you mate, you are not even in the game...

Damn it man, you don't know everything. And in this case, dealing with the Troubles, you know nothing.

Oh and P.S.
I dont give a stuff if you reply to what I say. Perhaps you now know how it feels to be constantly assailed on the moot? Perhaps those countless others whom you have bullied off this board know the feeling as well?
Like my life's pursuit is to get up and log on to tease you.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

The question is not whether the Russians want to separate from Chechnya (they clearly don't), but whether the Chechnyans want to separate from Russia.

Thats damn on the point. What is the underlying reason for this current madness. Did these rebels wake up and decide to take a school hostage because they needed the self esteem boost?

So why did they do it. Why did terrorists just attack the Australian Embassy? Why did terrorists slam planes into the WTC?

Did they wake up and think, " yes, the sun is high, and their are no clouds; I think I'll suicide in the name of Allah...."

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

And of that I say, JD, you know nothing of Ulster or its current problems, so dont act as though you do. When was the last time YOU were in Derry passing through checkpoints? At least Gaff is in the ball park talking about Eire, and you mate, you are not even in the game...

Damn it man, you don't know everything. And in this case, dealing with the Troubles, you know nothing.

Oh and P.S.
I dont give a stuff if you reply to what I say. Perhaps you now know how it feels to be constantly assailed on the moot? Perhaps those countless others whom you have bullied off this board know the feeling as well?
Like my life's pursuit is to get up and log on to tease you.

And I would say that that is quite enough.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

Like my life's pursuit is to get up and log on to tease you.

Maybe not Fenir... but you sure don't seem to let an opportunity pass to direct a pointed comment his way... even when you're not directly responding to another comment he has made (although you were in this case).

Let's keep the discussion and the posts about the topics... not about each other. In THIS case, you're stepping out of line in this regard.

Although I see someone else is already on top of it.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

:
:
The question is not whether the Russians want to separate from Chechnya (they clearly don't), but whether the Chechnyans want to separate from Russia.

Yes - and this is also complicated by the fact that several other former republics of the USSR WERE allowed to have their independence from Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Checknya - and some of the others - were not. Why certain ones were allowed and others were not, I'm not too sure of.

Still - if the Chechen separatists want to make progress, it cannot be through terrorism. Perhaps all the rest of us are over-slow in responding to their plight. But now that some among them have done like this, our best recourse is to back Russia. Otherwise, terrorism becomes the best way to accomplish otherwise unattainable goals... and then pity us all!

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Yes - and this is also complicated by the fact that several other former republics of the USSR WERE allowed to have their independence from Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Checknya - and some of the others - were not. Why certain ones were allowed and others were not, I'm not too sure of.

Maybe because the lands that were allowed to be independant are geographically next to Europe? I wouldn't know if that had anything to do with it, mind you, but I just noticed it.

I wonder what the majority of Chechenia wants: to stay in Russia or to be independant. We know a small group at least (in this case the rebel fighters and terrorists) wants to but I frankly have no clue what the rest of the Chechenians wants.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Fenir_LacDanan

And of that I say, JD, you know nothing of Ulster or its current problems, so dont act as though you do. When was the last time YOU were in Derry passing through checkpoints? At least Gaff is in the ball park talking about Eire, and you mate, you are not even in the game...

Damn it man, you don't know everything. And in this case, dealing with the Troubles, you know nothing.

I don't have to explain to you everything I know and if I did you wouldn't be able to handle the overload. You can think what you wish.

Oh and P.S.
I dont give a stuff if you reply to what I say. Perhaps you now know how it feels to be constantly assailed on the moot? Perhaps those countless others whom you have bullied off this board know the feeling as well?

Hmmm - coming from someone who has only resently been on the moot - that's a good one. You don't know who started to be assailed first. You might want to do some research on it.

Like my life's pursuit is to get up and log on to tease you.

Hmmm - you sure do go out of your way and bring up my name a lot in your posts. I don't think I have to point out to everyone that what you say and what you actually do are two different things.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Maybe because the lands that were allowed to be independant are geographically next to Europe? I wouldn't know if that had anything to do with it, mind you, but I just noticed it.

I don't think so, as other countries further from Europe than Chechnya, like Kazakhstan, are independence now. While Chechnya isn't.

USSR freed all the countries that were part of it - it was already divided to republics. (15 - all of them are now independence. And only they are.)
Chechnya wasn't one of them - it was part of Russia, as it is today. So they didn't get their independence, as opposed to Ukraine, or Estonia, or Turkemanistan. (sp. long word)

[osszie]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Maybe because the lands that were allowed to be independant are geographically next to Europe? I wouldn't know if that had anything to do with it, mind you, but I just noticed it.

I wonder what the majority of Chechenia wants: to stay in Russia or to be independant. We know a small group at least (in this case the rebel fighters and terrorists) wants to but I frankly have no clue what the rest of the Chechenians wants.

I'm old and crusty enough to remember events when the soviet uinion was disolved. I remember when soverignty was handed back to most of the countries of the former USSR. Chechnya was held onto by the russians......there was international condemnation and huge protests in Chechnya itself (I don't think it's an underestimation to say that a majority of Chechnians were looking forward to regaining their soverignty).......Russia held onto Chechnya for two reasons.....it's a gateway to the south (trade routes, exports etc) and at the time it was part of a direct route for oil piplines transporting over a million barrels of oil a day.

In a nutshell, if Chechnya had been given its soverignty it would quickly become a wealthy part of Eastern Europe. If it's held by the Russians, the wealth and convienience of not having to actually pay Chechnya for export duties and land tax for their oil companies is not a problem.

As usual, it's all about money.

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

USSR freed all the countries that were part of it - it was already divided to republics. (15 - all of them are now independence. And only they are.)
Chechnya wasn't one of them - it was part of Russia, as it is today. So they didn't get their independence, as opposed to Ukraine, or Estonia, or Turkemanistan. (sp. long word)

Oh - I wasn't aware of that. Hmmm... I wonder if there's an easy place to get confirmation.

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Oh - I wasn't aware of that. Hmmm... I wonder if there's an easy place to get confirmation.

What about this? http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_.../Chechnya.html

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

What about this? http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_.../Chechnya.html

Thanks for taking me up on that Rad... I still know so little about navigating myself around all the web's resources. I'm just so glad Entmoot is filled with so many people smarter than me!

Still though, from reading it, it sounds to me like Chechnya was part of a separate republic. Can you use your internet magic to summon something that will tell us about the 15 republics of the USSR and what became of each of them?

[Radagast The Brown]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Thanks for taking me up on that Rad... I still know so little about navigating myself around all the web's resources. I'm just so glad Entmoot is filled with so many people smarter than me!

Still though, from reading it, it sounds to me like Chechnya was part of a separate republic. Can you use your internet magic to summon something that will tell us about the 15 republics of the USSR and what became of each of them?

Sure.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionar...st%20Republics

There's a table in there - with the list of the republic.

Edit - I just go to Google by the way. That's all the secret. You'd be surprised how easy it is.

[Valandil]

Interesting... and very good! Thanks!

[Valandil]

And actually... perhaps it complicates the wishes of the Chechens, but simplifies the apparent solution... it seems more clear that it IS a part of Russia than I had thought it was.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by Radagast The Brown

I don't think so, as other countries further from Europe than Chechnya, like Kazakhstan, are independent now. While Chechnya isn't.

USSR freed all the countries that were part of it - it was already divided to republics. (15 - all of them are now independent. And only they are.)
Chechnya wasn't one of them - it was part of Russia, as it is today. So they didn't get their independence, as opposed to Ukraine, or Estonia, or Turkemanistan. (sp. long word)

Eh, I was only thinking of Estonia and its neighbours. I forgot all about Kazachstan, frankly I didn't even consider it as a former USSR land. Shows my ignorance big time, doesn't it? I wish they had paid more attention to it in geography class in the first years of high school. All I remember from the split ups is that we had to get a new extra map because our world atlas was no longer correct.

[Artanis]

Originally Posted by Valandil

Still - if the Chechen separatists want to make progress, it cannot be through terrorism. Perhaps all the rest of us are over-slow in responding to their plight. But now that some among them have done like this, our best recourse is to back Russia. Otherwise, terrorism becomes the best way to accomplish otherwise unattainable goals... and then pity us all!

What about: Now that we are reminded of their plight, our best resourse is to respond to it? I don't agree that it is best to back Russia, I think that will increase desperation among the Chechnians and lead to more terror. Giving some attention to the problems and suffering in Chechnya is not the same as supporting the terrorists, it is doing now what we should have done a long time ago.

[Linaewen]

What a tragedy. Nearly everyone in so small a town lost a loved one. The horrific conditions the people- CHILDREN- were kept in were shocking. Not even allowing them water in the sweltering heat?!