Why terrorists attack America

[Fenir_LacDanan]

quote: by Fenir
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All I ever contended was that there was a reason for the increased attacks on the US. This is all I wish to debate.

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quote: originally by JeresyDevil

Under a name other than your usual name on entmoot obviously. Why come to a tolkien board to only discuss this one subject?




This I refute. I stand on my own, and I hide nothing, nor behind any name. I have already given my real name in my handle. Would an address suffice? I find this accusation base and cowardly.

I found this forum in the spirit of friendship and debate. Hence I interacted with it. I would concede being defeated on facts, but I would not concede being slandered on assumption.

All I did was put forth an argument. I have abused no one.

[Dwarven Sen]

I don't like Tony Blair, but I'll say this for him. He started the steps towards peace in Ireland, and if that can truly happen, then it can only be a good thing. Peace is founded on negotiation and if we can negotiate a settlement then that's all well and good. It won't be England that would have to give up Northern Ireland, it would be the UK. Besides, the people I've spoken to from NI, like being part of the UK.

[Fat middle]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Sorry - but the IRA is small potatoes and that is result to the occupation of Northern Ireland. IRA isn't trying to destroy England - it just wants Northern Ireland to be part of Ireland and free from English imperialism.

As I've said in the Spain thread, that's not the point. IRA is terrorism whatever they want.

There's no justification for terrorism. Independency is not a justification.

What is bad about Al-Qaeda is not that they want to destroy occidentalism, but that they use terrorism to destroy it.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
quote: by Fenir
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All I ever contended was that there was a reason for the increased attacks on the US. This is all I wish to debate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: originally by JeresyDevil

Under a name other than your usual name on entmoot obviously. Why come to a tolkien board to only discuss this one subject?




This I refute. I stand on my own, and I hide nothing, nor behind any name. I have already given my real name in my handle. Would an address suffice? I find this accusation base and cowardly.

I found this forum in the spirit of friendship and debate. Hence I interacted with it. I would concede being defeated on facts, but I would not concede being slandered on assumption.

All I did was put forth an argument. I have abused no one.

Why put forth an argument here? Why join a tolkien board for this one one single thread? You don't know anyone here and there are plenty of political discussion forums to talk about this. I find it rather funny that someone out of the blue would come here - to start one particular thread and only post in that particular thread.

By the way - friendship to who. As for slander - you are the one who is slandering the US. The US is crap in your minfd obvioulsy and have no understanding of what the US does in the world. You call us the cops of the world - it wasn't us who wanted to go into Bosnia at first - we wanted Europe ot handle it - but they couldn't. Europe is the one that begged us.

As has been correctly mentioned - it was becuase of France that we got involved with Vietnam. In Rwanda - people criticized us for not getting involved - but the reason why we didn't - was because of Somalia. The UN had to pull out of Somalia because we left. Europe again couldn't handle the peacekeeping efforts there without the US to hold their hand.

You may have contempt for the US - but by your statements - you are completely ignorant of the US and what we do.

[Dwarven Sen]

occidentalism

That is an incredible word. i'd just like to thank Fat middle for teaching me something new. And also I agree with your views on terrorism.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fat middle
As I've said in the Spain thread, that's not the point. IRA is terrorism whatever they want.

There's no justification for terrorism. Independency is not a justification.

I didn't say it was. I'm just saying that you don't view this as different than that terrorism

What is bad about Al-Qaeda is not that they want to destroy occidentalism, but that they use terrorism to destroy it.

Oh - so if they used other means to destroy our way of life - it would be okay then? Wasn't hitler and what he did to the jews a form of terrorism?

[Fenir_LacDanan]

My sincere apoligies, Mr JersyDevil, I had no idea that this, or indeed any site belonged soley to America...

Here is myself assuming that this is a debate about terrorism, and not all about the US, and her view.

The entire world does not have to agree with you and your countries point of view.

While I know that every word I say will soon be divided up into neat little portions in your reply, to be "destroyed" peacemeal; I still contend all that I have contended.

Refute it, and stop calling to emotion. If I refute an argument you make, then refute mine. Its called debate, my dear fellow, and has been going on a while...

[Fenir_LacDanan]

Our way of life.

you call us the cops of the world.

you are completely ignorant of the US and what we do.





I say again. Is this the USA forum, or a debate on general issues?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
My sincere apoligies, Mr JersyDevil, I had no idea that this, or indeed any site belonged soley to America...

Here is myself assuming that this is a debate about terrorism, and not all about the US, and her view.

i didn't say it does. All I said - was I find it funny that someone out of no where comes here and posts one single thread and only posts in that thread. You seem rather defensive about the whole thing which leads me to believe that I am correct.

And you can stop with the false airs of respect. No need to call me Mr when I know you have no respect for me - just call me JD.

The entire world does not have to agree with you and your countries point of view.

I didn't say they did have to. Nor can you except the US just to go along all the time with what the world wants - or in particular Europe. Europe is fine and dandy with the US getting involved in world affairs - just as long as it's the affairs that Europe supports - such as Bosnia.

While I know that every word I say will soon be divided up into neat little portions in your reply, to be "destroyed" peacemeal; I still contend all that I have contended.

it isn't too hard to pick apart what you say - you don't really say too much that is actually based in fact. Most of it is your negative opinions of the US that you want to feel is fact.

Refute it, and stop calling to emotion. If I refute an argument you make, then refute mine. Its called debate, my dear fellow, and has been going on a while...

That is so funny. how have you been debating? the only thing you want confirmed is that the world hates the US and that is why the US gets attacked. Evil US does deserves it right? We haven't done any good in the world? We just play the police of the world - at no one elses inviitation - right? give me a break.

As I said before - stop with the false niceties.

[Fat middle]

Fenir: in the official welcome thread you can find information about how to use tags (for quoting, putting text in bold...) you seem to have problems with it.

BTW: remember that we can see your IP.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Our way of life.

you call us the cops of the world.

you are completely ignorant of the US and what we do.





I say again. Is this the USA forum, or a debate on general issues?

it's a debate - but you are the one who has called us the police of the world. Youa re the one making ignorant statements about the US and it's history.

See - by your own admission - you don't want to debate the actual issues - you only want to debate the issues as far as the US being evil and in your mind overbearing. If you can't debate that - you accuse this of being a US only forum. I disagree with your erroneous opinion of the US and I will state those. I will counteract your debate points when they are so completely onesided and wrong.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
i disagree it plays right into his hands - that is why they are doing absolutely everything possible to try to prevent Iraq from becoming a Democracy. If it was playing right into their hands - they wouldn't be resorting to killing innocent iraqis. They aren't bombing US Military anymore their - they are going after the public. They thought we would turn tail and run like we repeatedly did under the Clinton adminstration when a couple of our troops were killed - they didn't realize we actually have a backbone and aren't going anywhere.

Having said that - if you think that we are playing right into their hands with the War on Terror - what do you suggest? Just letting them go about their business?

Got to agree with JD on this one. The last thing Osama bin Laden and his type expected OR wanted was that we would aggressively take the fight to them. Keeping out of the fight in order to not offend the rest of the Middle East or for fear of it all getting out of hand and becoming a total US vs Arabs or West vs Islam, could only be so much of a consideration... and with our handling of it, that has not developed.

I don't at all think it 'played into their hands' to call it a 'War' (call it what it IS!), nor to move into Afghanistan and remove the Talkiban from power, putting Al Queida on the run (and disrupting their 'ideal society') - nor to go into Iraq and topple one of the worst governments in the world today.

Yes - terrorists are flocking to Iraq like crazy over the whole thing. That just makes it easier to find them... and harder for them to cause disruptions in other parts of the world. Best they go there, where we have our forces already deployed to take care of them. How convenient of them all to gather in that one place for us!

[Dwarven Sen]

i have a theory (It might be demons... (sorry went off into buffyverse))

Terrorists aim for America because they're really stupid, and it's really quite big, so they need a big target.

Does that theory suit everyone? Can we calm down a little bit please?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dwarven Sen
i have a theory (It might be demons... (sorry went off into buffyverse))

Terrorists aim for America because they're really stupid, and it's really quite big, so they need a big target.

Does that theory suit everyone? Can we calm down a little bit please?

I was going to be pissed at this - then i reread it - who exactly are you calling dumb? The terrorist or America? "they're" can refer grammatically to either.

As for the reason the terrorists are attacking America - is becuase they want to destroy the west - bin Ladin has stated that - and that is his goal. Us getting out of Saudi Arabia and all that crap is jst excuses like all his other excuses. Why would they be attacking Iraq? Why doesn't bin Ladin put his billions of dollars into building schools, building the pipe line, building the infastructure of Iraq and helping the people get back on their feet? Why is he killing innocent Iraqis? They started out killing American soldies - hoping that he would be able to scare us off. That didn't work. It however worked with the UN. They are now attacking civilian workers and Iraqis - trying to prevent America from bringing democracy there and freedom.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

quote:
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Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
Our way of life.

you call us the cops of the world.

you are completely ignorant of the US and what we do.





I say again. Is this the USA forum, or a debate on general issues?
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it's a debate - but you are the one who has called us the police of the world. Youa re the one making ignorant statements about the US and it's history.



As indeed, as Mr Fat Middle, pointed out, I am still working out the quoting thing for this server.


But still, Mr JerseyDevil has stated

"but you are the one who has called us the police of the world."

Indeed.

I actually took the quote from a previous JerseyDevil post. So, as I feel I must say,

I am the one whom called you the police...? ect

While I cannot figure out the system, My english remains untarnished. (IE I can still read)

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
But still, Mr JerseyDevil has stated

"but you are the one who has called us the police of the world."

Indeed.

I actually took the quote from a previous JerseyDevil post. So, as I feel I must say,

I am the one whom called you the police...? ect

While I cannot figure out the system, My english remains untarnished. (IE I can still read)

Great debate. I see you are basically speechless now.

[Fenir_LacDanan]

damn this word play.

Look, I am, and have still been interested in the reasons for terrorist attackson the US.

This is the last time I shall be civil, or logical.

Abuse me as you may, JerseyDevil, I hope you feel better.

All I have done is offered my opinion to this thread, and offered argument, and have not attacked anyone.

I contend the points, I do not content your personal ideals.

Damn it man, and honest, open debate. Is this beyond you?

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Valandil
Got to agree with JD on this one. The last thing Osama bin Laden and his type expected OR wanted was that we would aggressively take the fight to them. Keeping out of the fight in order to not offend the rest of the Middle East or for fear of it all getting out of hand and becoming a total US vs Arabs or West vs Islam, could only be so much of a consideration... and with our handling of it, that has not developed.

Have to disagree on this one. I think Osama at least expected as one of the contingencies that the US would retaliate- that's why he had Masood, leader of the Northern Alliance, assassinated on September 9th, 2001- two days before 9/11.

I think he assumed that the US would get bogged down the same way the Russians did- remember, this is where his experience of war came from.

I must confess that, while I believed the Americans could overthrow the Taliban, I (along with many others) was expecting it to be a much harder slog; I think that this was what bin Laden was hoping for.

His scenarios were that that either the US would restrict it's retaliation, as it had in the case of the bombings of the Embassies and the Cole(for the reasons you point out ) , or the Americans would get stuck in a messy guerilla warfare that would serve as a recruiting ground for Jihadists, just as it had against the Soviets.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Fenir_LacDanan
damn this word play.

Look, I am, and have still been interested in the reasons for terrorist attackson the US.

This is the last time I shall be civil, or logical.

Abuse me as you may, JerseyDevil, I hope you feel better.

All I have done is offered my opinion to this thread, and offered argument, and have not attacked anyone.

I contend the points, I do not content your personal ideals.

Damn it man, and honest, open debate. Is this beyond you?

You haven't been debating for quite some time now - other than tryign to make snide comments toward me. You just want to know why everyone hates the US. You might want to read your first posts. You don't want to debate - you want people to support your opinions - there's a difference.

There has only been ONE attacks on Americans - on our soil. And as for attacking the US - I have already stated why - you choose to ignore this because it doesn't confirm your opinion that we are evil.

Is it that you feel safer when thinking that Al Qaeda is out to get the US and you are safe from attacks - as long as you don't support us? If you do - then you better wake up quick. This is the same attitude Europe suffered from while Hitler built up his armies.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Have to disagree on this one. I think Osama at least expected as one of the contingencies that the US would retaliate- that's why he had Masood, leader of the Northern Alliance, assassinated on September 9th, 2001- two days before 9/11.

I think he assumed that the US would get bogged down the same way the Russians did- remember, this is where his experience of war came from.

Good point... and if you're correct, it's gratifying to see that he likely miscalculated the outcome anyway.

If he has any streak of realism left in him, things must look pretty bleak now. The US has been quite successful in achieving military objectives in both Afghanistan and Iraq, he's on the lam - and the Islamic/Arabic worlds are not rising up as one to oppose us. Admittedly, some aren't crazy about what we're doing - not crazy about it at all. But we still have some allies there (even if a few are only nominal allies), and we're even arguably making friends in Iraq... which can only help us in the perceptions of other Arabs and Moslems.