Discrimination - Page 6

Lotesse · 08-08-2005, 11:58 PM

Well, thought I'd give this old thread a little bump because it was so interesting, and it's labeled "Discrimination" which could refer to discrimination about ANYthing, and I wanted to raise the question of discrimination against prison inmates and ex-cons/parolees. These people REALLY get discriminated against, and for some individual cases it is justifiable discrimination, but for a vast majority of cases, it is in my not-so-humble opinion, vastly UNjustifiable discrimination.

Here's an example: inmates can't vote. Why not? Why shouldn't they retain the right to vote in free elections in the government under which they are subject? Because they are being punished for crimes against their society, many will say. O.K., point taken; however, they are already enduring the punishment that they earned by being detained, locked up. Does being locked up take away a person's ability to make rational, informed decisions about whom they'd like to see in the office of President or Governor?

Provocative stuff, I know!

***Rían*** · 08-09-2005, 12:55 AM

interesting subject! I think it differs by state in the US. Off the top of my head, I'd say that while they're in prison, they can't vote, but after they're out, they can. I think the states are all over the map with varying options on this one, but I don't know for sure.

Bombadillo · 08-09-2005, 12:56 AM

Hey, good question...

I think politicians were motivated to pass that law because they assumed inmates would be bitter toward their country/government. But then, which politician they would choose to stubbornly vote against would barely make a differnce anyway. Perhaps they'd rather not take the risk.

Personally, I disagree with that law. There are plenty of prisoners who are politically conscious, and seeing as four of the first ten ammendments reserve rights for criminals, I think they should have th right to affect their government.

It is discrimination to think they'll all boycott the system. In fact they wouldn't even be able to do that effectively so it's also dumb.

EDIT: I think all convicted felons in the U.S. are prohibited from voting even after they're released from prison. People charged with petty crimes still can. I'd would tell you for sure, but I seem to have lost my Criminology notes.

Lotesse · 08-09-2005, 01:05 AM

Hmmm, I didn't think of that, Rian, about the states differing; more fun research for me to do with good old Google! People can vote after they're released; I'm pretty sure that that's a federally uniform mandate, though perhaps in some individual cases it's not (like with those who've committed crimes against the sanctity of the government, or for ex-terrorists and stuff). But rather than parolees, I was actually thinking of the inmates themselves, while they are doing time. For instance, if the inmate's doing time for something non-violent (take Martha Stewart, for instance), or for any other legally pre-determined sort of "instance", what are your thoughts on restoring these inmates the right to vote while they are being detained? Maybe on a case-to-case basis?

Lotesse · 08-09-2005, 01:10 AM

Hi, Bombadillo; we cross-posted. Thanx 4 your input; that's what I'm trying to say. Unfortunately, I still have not figured out how to quote previous posters when I put up a post - how DOES one do that, where it comes up in the amber box? I know it's off topic - someone could PM me, if they wanted...

Yes, quite a majority of prison inmates are both politically conscious and highly intelligent, as well as interested in doing something about the state of their "governors", being governed as they are...

Bombadillo · 08-09-2005, 01:30 AM

No wonder you've had such unique things to say in your 868 posts.

THere's an itty bitty green button at the bottom right hand corner of each post, below the signature. Click on it and you're redirected to the "new post" page, or whatever, with the quoted post already pasted in your box with code around it.

I do remember one thing from criminology class: felons tend to be on the intelligent side. So it's a shame their thoughts have to be ignored, really, but of course politicians don't want them affecting their votes and making elections "questionable," and what citizen is going to campaign for giving felons the right to vote besides felons themselves? We overlook one privelege in the Bill of Rights and we're screwed out of it forever.

The Gaffer · 08-11-2005, 04:18 AM

IIRC this was one of the contentious issues in the 2000 presidential elections. In Florida, felons don't get to vote even after they've served their sentences, so...

African americans are more likely to be sent to jail when charged with the same offences as white people =>
More african americans tend to be in jail =>
More african americans tend to lose their vote =>
Discrimination in the judicial system spreads to the political system!

IIRC, there were some people in Florida who were disqualified from voting because of criminal records they got from their participation in civil rights protests in the 60s.

Spock · 08-11-2005, 09:25 AM

Well whom ever commits the crime and is found guilty of committing the crime should do the time and take whatever consequences irregardless of race. Lets not start quotas OR limitations

Lotesse · 08-11-2005, 09:34 AM

Yes, Spock, I agree; my point is, perhaps one of the consequences should NOT be taking away the person's right to vote in general elections, with a special circumstances amendment in the same law that denies certain individual extreme cases only. To change this current no-right-to-vote-if imprisoned law is what I'd like to see happen. But, agreed, no matter what, at th end of the day, 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime'.

Spock · 08-11-2005, 09:39 AM

..."don't do it"....Baretta.

Actually we're close on this. I feel if you've committed a felony (only) you've done something against society which abrogates your right to vote.

The Gaffer · 08-12-2005, 03:54 AM

I agree with the "don't do the crime" sentiment but don't think that aborgating your right to vote is necessarily a just punishment. Two reasons for this:

1) the punishment should fit the crime. If I steal someone's car, why should I forfeit my vote for the rest of my life?

2) judicial systems are imperfect and should have the facility to rectify errors. The civil rights movement is an excellent example: these people were protesting in a just cause, right? It was society that had got it wrong. So it is manifestly wrong to continue to punish them.

Spock · 08-12-2005, 10:20 AM

Your argument is full of holes. The biggest is the civil rights statement. Protesting is never a felony. Even many car thefts are not felonies anymore. My statement was for those convicted of Felonies only.

brownjenkins · 08-12-2005, 11:25 AM

a person's right to vote should never be taken away... period

how prisions are run is something that is largely determined by the state, and what better voice than than of someone who actually resides in one?

Lotesse · 08-12-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

a person's right to vote should never be taken away... period

how prisions are run is something that is largely determined by the state, and what better voice than than of someone who actually resides in one?

Word!! This is my feeling as well.

Spock · 08-12-2005, 12:10 PM

Your right to vote is nebulous at best. Violating societies laws is your choice and you lose that right.

In part the Constitution alludes to this process in section 2 of the 14th amendment

"the right to vote at any election ....is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state..................... except for participation in rebellion, or other crime"

This clearly permits the practice.

brownjenkins · 08-12-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

This clearly permits the practice.

that does not necessarily make it a wise practice though

Spock · 08-12-2005, 12:30 PM

Who are you or we to decide what is wise. Last I checked, neither of us was named Gandalf.

The Gaffer · 08-12-2005, 12:37 PM

Well, IIRC Gandalf says that we must do what's right with what little wisdom is given to us.

So you think it's fine that people can't vote because they were civil rights protesters in the 60s?

Spock · 08-12-2005, 12:41 PM

I REPEAT....PROTESTERS WEREN'T CHARGED WITH FELONIES..it wasn't classified as such in any of the southern states where most arrests took place.....so they can vote. If they committed another crime which was a felony then they cannot vote.

brownjenkins · 08-12-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spock

Who are you or we to decide what is wise. Last I checked, neither of us was named Gandalf.

my vote gives me the right to take part in deciding what is "wise"

08-08-2005, 11:58 PM	#101
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	Well, thought I'd give this old thread a little bump because it was so interesting, and it's labeled "Discrimination" which could refer to discrimination about ANYthing, and I wanted to raise the question of discrimination against prison inmates and ex-cons/parolees. These people REALLY get discriminated against, and for some individual cases it is justifiable discrimination, but for a vast majority of cases, it is in my not-so-humble opinion, vastly UNjustifiable discrimination. Here's an example: inmates can't vote. Why not? Why shouldn't they retain the right to vote in free elections in the government under which they are subject? Because they are being punished for crimes against their society, many will say. O.K., point taken; however, they are already enduring the punishment that they earned by being detained, locked up. Does being locked up take away a person's ability to make rational, informed decisions about whom they'd like to see in the office of President or Governor? Provocative stuff, I know! __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

08-09-2005, 12:55 AM	#102
*Rían* Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!) Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Not where I want to be ... Posts: 15,254	interesting subject! I think it differs by state in the US. Off the top of my head, I'd say that while they're in prison, they can't vote, but after they're out, they can. I think the states are all over the map with varying options on this one, but I don't know for sure. __________________ . I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva!

08-09-2005, 12:56 AM	#103
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	Hey, good question... I think politicians were motivated to pass that law because they assumed inmates would be bitter toward their country/government. But then, which politician they would choose to stubbornly vote against would barely make a differnce anyway. Perhaps they'd rather not take the risk. Personally, I disagree with that law. There are plenty of prisoners who are politically conscious, and seeing as four of the first ten ammendments reserve rights for criminals, I think they should have th right to affect their government. It is discrimination to think they'll all boycott the system. In fact they wouldn't even be able to do that effectively so it's also dumb. EDIT: I think all convicted felons in the U.S. are prohibited from voting even after they're released from prison. People charged with petty crimes still can. I'd would tell you for sure, but I seem to have lost my Criminology notes. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 08-09-2005 at 12:59 AM.

08-09-2005, 01:05 AM	#104
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	Hmmm, I didn't think of that, Rian, about the states differing; more fun research for me to do with good old Google! People can vote after they're released; I'm pretty sure that that's a federally uniform mandate, though perhaps in some individual cases it's not (like with those who've committed crimes against the sanctity of the government, or for ex-terrorists and stuff). But rather than parolees, I was actually thinking of the inmates themselves, while they are doing time. For instance, if the inmate's doing time for something non-violent (take Martha Stewart, for instance), or for any other legally pre-determined sort of "instance", what are your thoughts on restoring these inmates the right to vote while they are being detained? Maybe on a case-to-case basis? __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

08-09-2005, 01:10 AM	#105
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	Hi, Bombadillo; we cross-posted. Thanx 4 your input; that's what I'm trying to say. Unfortunately, I still have not figured out how to quote previous posters when I put up a post - how DOES one do that, where it comes up in the amber box? I know it's off topic - someone could PM me, if they wanted... Yes, quite a majority of prison inmates are both politically conscious and highly intelligent, as well as interested in doing something about the state of their "governors", being governed as they are... __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

08-09-2005, 01:30 AM	#106
Bombadillo "The Bomb" Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: all over the place Posts: 1,601	No wonder you've had such unique things to say in your 868 posts. THere's an itty bitty green button at the bottom right hand corner of each post, below the signature. Click on it and you're redirected to the "new post" page, or whatever, with the quoted post already pasted in your box with code around it. I do remember one thing from criminology class: felons tend to be on the intelligent side. So it's a shame their thoughts have to be ignored, really, but of course politicians don't want them affecting their votes and making elections "questionable," and what citizen is going to campaign for giving felons the right to vote besides felons themselves? We overlook one privelege in the Bill of Rights and we're screwed out of it forever. __________________ Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity?

08-11-2005, 04:18 AM	#107
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	IIRC this was one of the contentious issues in the 2000 presidential elections. In Florida, felons don't get to vote even after they've served their sentences, so... African americans are more likely to be sent to jail when charged with the same offences as white people => More african americans tend to be in jail => More african americans tend to lose their vote => Discrimination in the judicial system spreads to the political system! IIRC, there were some people in Florida who were disqualified from voting because of criminal records they got from their participation in civil rights protests in the 60s.

08-11-2005, 09:25 AM	#108
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Well whom ever commits the crime and is found guilty of committing the crime should do the time and take whatever consequences irregardless of race. Lets not start quotas OR limitations __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

08-11-2005, 09:34 AM	#109
Lotesse of the House of Fëanor Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 6,150	Yes, Spock, I agree; my point is, perhaps one of the consequences should NOT be taking away the person's right to vote in general elections, with a special circumstances amendment in the same law that denies certain individual extreme cases only. To change this current no-right-to-vote-if imprisoned law is what I'd like to see happen. But, agreed, no matter what, at th end of the day, 'if you can't do the time, don't do the crime'. __________________ Few people have the imagination for reality. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

08-11-2005, 09:39 AM	#110
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	..."don't do it"....Baretta. Actually we're close on this. I feel if you've committed a felony (only) you've done something against society which abrogates your right to vote. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

08-12-2005, 03:54 AM	#111
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	I agree with the "don't do the crime" sentiment but don't think that aborgating your right to vote is necessarily a just punishment. Two reasons for this: 1) the punishment should fit the crime. If I steal someone's car, why should I forfeit my vote for the rest of my life? 2) judicial systems are imperfect and should have the facility to rectify errors. The civil rights movement is an excellent example: these people were protesting in a just cause, right? It was society that had got it wrong. So it is manifestly wrong to continue to punish them.

08-12-2005, 10:20 AM	#112
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Your argument is full of holes. The biggest is the civil rights statement. Protesting is never a felony. Even many car thefts are not felonies anymore. My statement was for those convicted of Felonies only. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

08-12-2005, 11:25 AM	#113
brownjenkins Advocatus Diaboli Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Reality Posts: 3,767	a person's right to vote should never be taken away... period how prisions are run is something that is largely determined by the state, and what better voice than than of someone who actually resides in one? __________________ Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.

08-12-2005, 12:10 PM	#115
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Right To Vote Your right to vote is nebulous at best. Violating societies laws is your choice and you lose that right. In part the Constitution alludes to this process in section 2 of the 14th amendment "the right to vote at any election ....is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state..................... except for participation in rebellion, or other crime" This clearly permits the practice. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 08-12-2005 at 12:21 PM. Reason: US CONSTITUTION

08-12-2005, 12:30 PM	#117
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	Who are you or we to decide what is wise. Last I checked, neither of us was named Gandalf. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

08-12-2005, 12:37 PM	#118
The Gaffer Elf Lord Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: In me taters Posts: 3,288	Well, IIRC Gandalf says that we must do what's right with what little wisdom is given to us. So you think it's fine that people can't vote because they were civil rights protesters in the 60s?

08-12-2005, 12:41 PM	#119
Spock An enigma in a conundrum Join Date: Oct 1999 Posts: 6,476	I REPEAT....PROTESTERS WEREN'T CHARGED WITH FELONIES..it wasn't classified as such in any of the southern states where most arrests took place.....so they can vote. If they committed another crime which was a felony then they cannot vote. __________________ Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

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