02-24-2006, 12:24 AM | #101 |
of the House of Fëanor
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That's a cool analogy. For some reason, I was instantly reminded of a scene in the movie Bound, from 1996, with Jennifer Tilly and Gina Gershon. Now usually Tilly irritates me and Gina Gershon straight up annoys, she kind of grosses me out, but in this movie they both worked really well. Oh, sorry, am I getting off track here?
Why does this have to be turned into another thread where gays and bisexuals have to explain themselves and argue the "rights and wrongs" of being gay or bi with right-wing Christian haters and even homophobes? I thought this could be a thread discussing things like Katya and Gaffer talked about the other day, or what Nurvi and Shah and Lady M and Chrys and all the others here on Entmoot who are either gay or bi, or have questions and would like to talk, not convert or condemn or ARGUE ceaselessly about. Is the Teacup Cafe the only General Message thread extant on Entmoot wherein people can talk without arguing points and being negative?
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02-24-2006, 12:52 AM | #102 |
Elf Lord
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Well technically this is a forum for debate... but that doesn't mean the arguments have to be negative.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
02-24-2006, 01:16 AM | #103 | |
Elven Maiden
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02-24-2006, 01:22 AM | #104 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I very often hear from the pro-homosexual side that people should be able to do what they want with their sexuality, and then I see many on that side vehemently protest against people who are doing EXACTLY THAT, but just in a way that the pro-homosexuals don't like
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 01:52 AM | #105 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Personally, my beliefs about the worldview that I think is correct (i.e., best reflects what I see around me and matches best with the information that I have available) are NOT a matter of conditioning. They're the result of mature, adult deliberation backed up by hours and hours and HOURS of research and thought. Sure, I grew up going to church (but not a Christian), but that doesn't matter - people grow up in the church and end up atheists, and people grow up atheists and end up in a church.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 02-24-2006 at 02:14 AM. |
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02-24-2006, 01:57 AM | #106 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 11:02 AM | #107 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Topic specific threads can and do have points of view but name calling; baiting, flaming, etc. are not permitted. IMO this topic thread is covering a very wide subject matter in a reasonable way. Different opinions are just that. Remember to never attack the poster.
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02-24-2006, 11:11 AM | #108 | |
Elf Lord
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Especially in regards to religious beliefs. Religion when learned young is a difficult habit to break, I haven't been to church except for the occainsional holiday and funerals in years, intellectually I disagree with nearly everything in the dogma I grew up with. Yet when asked I still identify myself as catholic, it's still a part of the way I think and behave. And I have to go to class now. More later.
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"Because it is my name! Because I cannot have another in my life! Because I lie and sign myself to lies! Because I am not worth the dust on the feet them that hang! How may I live without my name? I have given you my soul; Leave me my name!" - The Crucible "nolite hippopotamum vexare!" |
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02-24-2006, 02:40 PM | #109 | |
The Black Númenórean
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Yay! *Hug!* I agree with above statement.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
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02-24-2006, 03:17 PM | #110 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-24-2006, 04:33 PM | #111 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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So would you support a person who had had homosexual relationships and decided that they, personally, wanted to switch to having heterosexual relationships (even though the homosexual urges are still there) and wanted to go to the Exodus group for help and support? Quote:
And IMO it's irrelevant if the feelings are still there or not. As Dumbledore said, it's a person's actions that define them. Although I think that the homosexual feelings could be lessened significantly and heterosexual feelings increased significantly, I doubt that the homosexual feelings would entirely go away, in most cases. But that's not the important thing, IMO. If, for whatever reason, I became firmly convinced that heterosexual relations were wrong, then I would strive to switch to homosexual relations and/or abstain from heterosexual relations, REGARDLESS of my feelings. (of course, I"m not saying this is a light decision - I'm sure it's not done lightly at ALL by the people that go to Exodus for support/help changing their behaviors.) I don't think people should be mindless slaves to their feelings. For example, I like to be lazy. I REEEEEELY like to be lazy. But since I think that's wrong, I strive against it. I give into it a lot, too, but the point is that BECAUSE I think laziness is wrong, and cheerful, diligent work (when it's time to work; not all the time!) is good, then I work to develop what I think is good. The thing that bothers me about the Exodus vandalism is that people are trying to stop/intimidate OTHER people from doing what they think is right.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 04:35 PM | #112 |
The Black Númenórean
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If that is what they wanted to, it is their decision. I will upport them either way. If it made them happy, I would gladly support them. Though personally, I dont think I need to go to any support group. I have My Lady as my support.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
02-24-2006, 04:39 PM | #113 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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IMO, you're wrong that there are haters and homophobes on this thread, so I'm calling you on it and asking you for evidence to support your claim. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 04:41 PM | #114 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 04:48 PM | #115 |
The Black Númenórean
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I sure as hell wouldn't tear them down! That is just plain silly!
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
02-24-2006, 05:19 PM | #116 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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02-24-2006, 05:31 PM | #117 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(starting the same way you did - I like to start that way sometimes - to me, it shows that the thought under consideration is currently under active consideration and the person is open to looking at it if new info is being received ... anyway, what a random ramble!) I think it can be dangerous to dismiss groups as being conditioned without specific points that can be observed and analyzed ... it seems like you're willing to dismiss "religious people" in general as being brainwashed. If that's so, are YOU brainwashed? since you admit to having a religious background? I think a higher percentage of non-religious people are conditioned than religious people, at least here in the USA. I can't tell you how many non-religious people I've found that are ENTIRELY unable to defend their worldview with any data or logical argument whatsoever, but that's another discussion ... And you noted that despite your Catholic background, "intellectually I disagree with nearly everything in the dogma I grew up with. Yet when asked I still identify myself as catholic, it's still a part of the way I think and behave". That's the point - what I"m talking about here is NOT the way I think and behave automatically. It's what I have analyzed and thought about - like the part of you that intellectually disagrees with your background. Obviously, you don't have to reject your background to be right. It is clear that EITHER atheists are right OR people that think there is a god/gods are right, REGARDLESS of who has rejected their background or who has not rejected their background. I think before dismissing "religious" people (or ANY person) you need to look at that individual person and see what they're like, and whether or not they can put forth reasons behind their beliefs (not just "religious" beliefs - ANY beliefs).
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 05:45 PM | #118 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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My point was that if people want to change their behavior for whatever reason they, personally, find valid, even if it goes against the urges they have, then they should not be intimidated/hindered. I think people should make their own choices how they want to behave. Quote:
Basically I think "homosexual" or "heterosexual" are handy descriptive labels to describe TWO things - actions AND urges/feelings. And that's where the confusion lies. A person can be "homosexual" in the sense of finding sexual relationships with the same sex person desireable, but "heterosexual" in the sense of they, personally, think that husband/wife sex is the right way to go for them and they choose to feed that urge and starve the homosexual urge. I don't think a homosexual person can instantly change in BOTH ways. But also, I don't think a person is DEFINED by their sexuality. I think their ACTIONS define them more than their urges. This is hard to express ... let's try this ... say a person has homosexual urges. I don't think it's right for other people to say, "You have homosexual urges, therefore you ARE a homosexual and MUST ACT on those urges!" Just like I have desires, sometimes, to try sex with other men, that doesn't DEFINE my actions - BECAUSE I think it's right for me to only have sex with my husband (and luckily I enjoy it tremendously! ) I don't let those desires DEFINE my actions. Quote:
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My guess is that you are lumping people that go to Exodus as ALL being ENTIRELY motivated by others, as opposed to personally making that very difficult choice (although certainly EVERYONE considers input from others in most if not all decisions). And I think you're dead wrong. Quote:
Do you think that alcoholics should just give in to their urges and drink themselves to death, if they think that's wrong? Do you think that I should give into my laziness urges and stop fighting against them, if I think they're wrong? Do you think a person who is homosexual in both senses that I described above should stop fighting those urges if THEY, PERSONALLY, by their OWN decision, think they're wrong for them, personally?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-24-2006, 05:45 PM | #119 | ||||
Elf Lord
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I was quoting this organization's president when I said that "hundreds of thousands" have changed. My claims about many of these people being "happily married" were unsupported, but seem only logical. If hundreds of thousands have been changed completely, it only makes sense that a large number of them will be married. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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02-24-2006, 06:29 PM | #120 |
Quasi Evil
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Well the problem is that theres not a lot of studies done on this field. A lot of the “therapists” who do it are essentially fly by night types on the outskirts of real professional therapeutic community and they tend to be almost entirely Fundamentalists and evangelicals. Coincidently…
If you want further information check out DR. ROBERT SPITZER'S STUDY OF REPARATIVE THERAPY So according to the only recognized study of sexual orientation “therapy”: "there is no published evidence supporting the efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation." The author also said: "...the kinds of changes my subjects reported are highly unlikely to be available to the vast majority [of gays and lesbians]... "[only] a small minority -- perhaps 3% -- might have a "malleable" sexual orientation." And this was after the fundies stacked the study with cherry picked choice subjects! Pretty sad really. A problem is that these “therapists” consider agreeing to be celibate as "curing" someone of homosexuality when its nothing of the kind as I said in my earlier post. That throws things off. Furthermore, they ignore the whole concept of bisexuality. And clearly if someone likes BOTH sexes then its not the same as “curing” someone who strictly goes for the same sex as them. Right? So theres a tremendous amount of data manipulation and bad science involved in this debate from those who have a vested interest in making it look good.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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