feanor a villian - Page 6

afro-elf · 06-03-2002, 03:43 PM

How can purposely abandoning your kin on the grinding ice AND burning the ships afterwards.

Do you know how long he left them to tread to ME?
27 YEARS on the grinding ice.

That was intentional NOT a momentary lapse of reason.

Blackheart · 06-03-2002, 04:24 PM

Yes. I think having to go out of the way just to extend excuses to Feanor for his behavior sort of confirms the fact that he's a villian.

You don't really need contorted ethics to excuse people who aren't villians.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 05:41 PM

No. He wasn't irredeemably evil. For a start, his motives were completely different from Hitler and Morgoth. He was not after domination, nor subjucation: he was filfulling that damned oath of his.

Yes, the kin-slaying and the burning of the ships was a horrid act, BUT at that point it was due to an irrationality, not an inherent evil-ness. Remember that his mother put all that power into him, and then he put all that power into the silmarils. Somewhere in that transaction, something went horribly wrong, and rendered him a few sandwiches short of a picnic. This doesn't make him evil. Or even villainous.

Captain Stern · 06-03-2002, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originaly posted by Afro-elf: How can purposely abandoning your kin on the grinding ice AND burning the ships afterwards.

Do you know how long he left them to tread to ME?
27 YEARS on the grinding ice.

That was intentional NOT a momentary lapse of reason.

I don't think Feanor expected them to attempt the crossing to Middle Earth. If you'll read the book again, it's quite clear that it was his hope that Fingolfin and his host return to Valinor in shame, I'm sure you'll agree that Feanor would get a kick out of that

Moving on, I don't think that saying 'Feanor let his pride take over' is very appropriate. That would suggest that Feanor knew that he had no chance of reclaiming the silmarils and destroying Morgoth, and that he carried on regardless because of his pride. That simply wasn't the case, Feanor fully believed he could do these things, it wasn't untill he lay dying staring at the slopes of Thangorodrim that he realised he wasn't invincible.

Quote:

Originally posted by Beard of Pants: Remember that his mother put all that power into him

I don't think it says anywhere that that is the reason why Feanor was so great, though I do realise Elf women could do such a thing. If it was that easy to breed greatness, then wouldn't there be many elves as great as Feanor? That's too simple and too mundane an explanation considering the mythical nature of Tolkien's world in my oppinion.

BeardofPants · 06-03-2002, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern

That's too simple and too mundane an explanation considering the mythical nature of Tolkien's world in my oppinion.

Okay, yeah. Probably. Blame the mid-morning, I just woke up, and my eyes are crusty...

However, she certainly did something different, because she crawled off and died from it. This coming from a woman that was supposedly of an immortal race.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 08:37 PM

Alright, he did not let his pride take over, but he did not stop to think rationally and therefore believed in his cause, and believed he could reclaim the Silmarils. Which is actully another way of saying he was overprideful.

Since when does pride alone make a villain? He made mistakes, he did not believe Fingolfin would attempt to cross the grinding ice, the kinslaying was. . .okay, that part was truly horrible, but he was not stopping to think. On the other hand, Morgoth, and Hitler, thought out their plans. They knew what they were doing. Feanor never once planned on slaying the Teleri.

Captain Stern · 06-03-2002, 09:13 PM

Quote:

However, she certainly did something different, because she crawled off and died from it.

I don't think she had much of a choice in the matter. Giving birth to one such as Feanor certainly took its toll on Miriel, and she chose not to fight very hard to live after the ordeal.

Tar-Elendil · 06-03-2002, 09:20 PM

she chose to leave the world. she chose to die.
she could have found healing in Lorien but she chose not to.

Captain Stern · 06-03-2002, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eruviel Greenleaf: Alright, he did not let his pride take over, but he did not stop to think rationally and therefore believed in his cause, and believed he could reclaim the Silmarils. Which is actully another way of saying he was overprideful.

The thing is, Feanor had never been humbled. There was no elf in the Blessed Realm that could match him in any feat, and he knew for certain that he surpassed even the Valar in certain things (namely craftmanship) while other things remained untested between himself and the Ainur. He had certainly never fought a Vala or a Maia, so he had no idea of his limits. To such an individual, wouldn't pride be an alien concept? (Rhetorical question)

So in conclusion, I'd say he was certainly rash (to the extreme) and over-confident in his abilities, but not neccessarily prideful.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 09:33 PM

True, he did not have much competition for 'greatest' in many things. You are right, he was never tested to the extent of his abilities (until he met the balrogs. . .) but would that not be a source of pride?

Anyway, yes, he was extremely rash and over-confident. Does that make him a villain? I think not.

Captain Stern · 06-03-2002, 09:37 PM

I never said I thought he was a villain

I'll certainly get back to with my oppinion on that, once I've gathered my thoughts

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Captain Stern
I never said I thought he was a villain

I'll certainly get back to with my oppinion on that, once I've gathered my thoughts

I never said you did think so...I just added that on there for all those people who think he is

I await your opinion

***Sister Golden Hair*** · 06-03-2002, 09:55 PM

Like I said before, I think a good term for Feanor is the "twisted good". To describe and debate his virtues, along with his draw backs could be quite a challenge. afro-elf, I think you are being a bit hard on the character, but there are many things to consider with this one. A little research might go along way for both pro and con and the in-between.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-03-2002, 10:04 PM

"Twisted good." It works, I think, in his case

*goes to finish Sil. and read it again, due to SGH's suggestion about research*

afro-elf · 06-04-2002, 02:15 AM

If Feanor was a leader of a nation today, I think that he would be guilty by the world court.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-04-2002, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by afro-elf
If Feanor was a leader of a nation today, I think that he would be guilty by the world court.

If Feanor was a leader of a nation today, things would have gone quite differently. I still believe you are being too harsh in your judgement of him. He had his problems, he made his mistakes, but he was not evil.

BeardofPants · 06-04-2002, 02:18 AM

Quote:

If Feanor was a leader of a nation today, I think that he would be guilty by the world court.

Absolutely. However. Would this make him evil? Consider: America has been tried, and found guilty of this as well. Does this make the American state evil? No.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-04-2002, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Does this make the American state evil? No.

That's debatable

afro-elf · 06-04-2002, 02:21 AM

I'm him not his nation. Do you consider Milosovietch (sp?) to a god guy?

My only point being here is that Feanor was not a GOOD guy. That's all I've been trying to say.

Eruviel Greenleaf · 06-04-2002, 02:26 AM

Well, Feanor wasn't perfect, that's for sure. But I wouldn't condemn him to the label of 'villain,' for his mistakes. No one is without mistakes, he just made too many of them. That doesn't mean he was not good at heart.

06-03-2002, 03:43 PM	#101
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	How can purposely abandoning your kin on the grinding ice AND burning the ships afterwards. Do you know how long he left them to tread to ME? 27 YEARS on the grinding ice. That was intentional NOT a momentary lapse of reason. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

06-03-2002, 04:24 PM	#102
Blackheart Elf Lord Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Darkness Posts: 1,211	Yes. I think having to go out of the way just to extend excuses to Feanor for his behavior sort of confirms the fact that he's a villian. You don't really need contorted ethics to excuse people who aren't villians. __________________ I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ...

06-03-2002, 05:41 PM	#103
BeardofPants the Shrike Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA <3 Posts: 10,647	No. He wasn't irredeemably evil. For a start, his motives were completely different from Hitler and Morgoth. He was not after domination, nor subjucation: he was filfulling that damned oath of his. Yes, the kin-slaying and the burning of the ships was a horrid act, BUT at that point it was due to an irrationality, not an inherent evil-ness. Remember that his mother put all that power into him, and then he put all that power into the silmarils. Somewhere in that transaction, something went horribly wrong, and rendered him a few sandwiches short of a picnic. This doesn't make him evil. Or even villainous. __________________ "Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords

06-03-2002, 08:37 PM	#106
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	Alright, he did not let his pride take over, but he did not stop to think rationally and therefore believed in his cause, and believed he could reclaim the Silmarils. Which is actully another way of saying he was overprideful. Since when does pride alone make a villain? He made mistakes, he did not believe Fingolfin would attempt to cross the grinding ice, the kinslaying was. . .okay, that part was truly horrible, but he was not stopping to think. On the other hand, Morgoth, and Hitler, thought out their plans. They knew what they were doing. Feanor never once planned on slaying the Teleri. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-03-2002, 09:20 PM	#108
Tar-Elendil Númenorean Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,050	she chose to leave the world. she chose to die. she could have found healing in Lorien but she chose not to. __________________ Why can we not be sober..

06-03-2002, 09:33 PM	#110
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	True, he did not have much competition for 'greatest' in many things. You are right, he was never tested to the extent of his abilities (until he met the balrogs. . .) but would that not be a source of pride? Anyway, yes, he was extremely rash and over-confident. Does that make him a villain? I think not. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-03-2002, 09:37 PM	#111
Captain Stern Elven Warrior Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 319	RE: feanor a villian I never said I thought he was a villain I'll certainly get back to with my oppinion on that, once I've gathered my thoughts __________________ Then hate overcame Fëanor's fear, and he cursed Melkor and bade him be gone, saying 'Get thee gone from my gate, thou jail-crow of Mandos!' And he shut the doors of his house in the face of the mightiest of all dwellers in Eä.

06-03-2002, 09:55 PM	#113
*Sister Golden Hair* Queen of Nargothrond Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Akron, Ohio - USA Posts: 7,121	Like I said before, I think a good term for Feanor is the "twisted good". To describe and debate his virtues, along with his draw backs could be quite a challenge. afro-elf, I think you are being a bit hard on the character, but there are many things to consider with this one. A little research might go along way for both pro and con and the in-between.

06-03-2002, 10:04 PM	#114
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	"Twisted good." It works, I think, in his case goes to finish Sil. and read it again, due to SGH's suggestion about research __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

06-04-2002, 02:15 AM	#115
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	If Feanor was a leader of a nation today, I think that he would be guilty by the world court. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

06-04-2002, 02:21 AM	#119
afro-elf Hoplite Nomad Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 3,931	I'm him not his nation. Do you consider Milosovietch (sp?) to a god guy? My only point being here is that Feanor was not a GOOD guy. That's all I've been trying to say. __________________ About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer.

06-04-2002, 02:26 AM	#120
Eruviel Greenleaf Alcoholic Villain-Fancying Elf Pirate Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Lyonesse Posts: 4,547	Well, Feanor wasn't perfect, that's for sure. But I wouldn't condemn him to the label of 'villain,' for his mistakes. No one is without mistakes, he just made too many of them. That doesn't mean he was not good at heart. __________________ Eruviel Greenleaf in a past life. "Whoever has come to understand the world has found only a corpse, and whoever has found a corpse is superior to the world." -The Gospel of Thomas SQUAWK!

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