07-29-2005, 10:10 AM | #101 | ||
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And here's a related question - if the motivation is towards an action that you think is right, would you object to the use of this motivator? For example - a school shooting scenario (unfortunately not hypothetical anymore ) - if there is a guy with a gun, picking off kids, I know that because of my belief in the afterlife, I would be more motivated to try to stop him (thus saving others) at the cost of my own life than I'm guessing I would be if I didn't believe there was an afterlife. If I didn't believe there was an afterlife, I'm guessing that saving my own skin would be a higher priority. Thoughts? Quote:
And frankly, to me the important thing is NOT if belief systems stimulate behavior that's useful to society or not. To me, the most important thing about a belief is: do I think it's true or not. I find it odd to look at beliefs any other way. I find it manipulative to try to encourage a belief that is useful, if one thinks it's not true, and I don't think it's right to manipulate anyone. Just some thoughts early in the morning... probably not too clear...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2005, 10:14 AM | #102 | |
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those examples are fine with me, IRex - I said "inciting the populace to hate and anger prior to provocation (or provocation in our opinion)". And I still don't think that the 700 club or southern preachers are doing this in the way that I've heard of some Muslim authorities doing this - can you give some examples of what you mean?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2005, 10:18 AM | #103 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2005, 10:39 AM | #104 | |||
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this is usually done by painting other nations or belief systems as "wrong" or "backward"... whether it be the attitude fostered towards native americans in the 1700s, jews in ww2, or western culture in present times Quote:
the problem is, a muslim in the middle east believes, just as sincerely as you do, that his belief system is just as true and absolute and my guess is that neither of you are budging on that
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07-29-2005, 10:47 AM | #105 | |
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the same can be said about any other crimes... and, as we've found out, even priests perform terrible crimes... so it is certainly not working for some of them... at the very best you can say that belief or lack of it has nothing to do with why people disregard some humans the right to life... i'd say that absolute belief systems give people the justification to disregard human life in some situations, a justification that is impossible to achieve if you do not believe in an afterlife the only possible exception is killing in self-defense... but almost all religious belief systems already say that this is okay anyway
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07-29-2005, 02:57 PM | #106 | |||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2005, 03:01 PM | #107 | ||||
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-29-2005 at 03:02 PM. |
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07-29-2005, 03:16 PM | #108 | |||||
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but two people, for instance, can have radically different views of how human life came about and, to them, it is "the truth"... whether it is "actually true" or not is irrelavant, 'cause it is unknowable... and for these two people to relate in any productive way they need to be able to accept and respect each other's varying ideas on these unknowable truths Quote:
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07-29-2005, 03:22 PM | #109 | ||||
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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07-29-2005, 03:25 PM | #110 | |||
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Houston, we have a problem ... Quote:
I certainly agree that outward standards can change, and the way things look at different times and places can be different, but that some things are always right and some are always wrong.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2005, 03:26 PM | #111 | |
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I guess you misunderstood me. GTG now, tho!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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07-29-2005, 03:33 PM | #112 | ||
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Franklin Graham (Billy Graham’s son) is on record as saying: “The God of Islam is not the same God. He's not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It's a different God, and I believe it [Islam] is a very evil and wicked religion." Benny Hinn proclaimed to thousands of Christians at the American Airlines Center in Dallas, TX that "We are on God's side. This is not a war between Arabs and Jews. It's a war between God and the devil." Other less known Christian ministers have out right demonized islam and called for its elimination. Some have said that “the line between Christians and Muslims is the difference between good and evil.” Now I don’t know about you but if I was a weak minded Christian this kind of talk would certainly “incite me to hate and anger” Now if you want to sit here and say well Muslims do it more therefore we are better then them then dont bother cause thats not an argument I want to get into because its stupid. The point is that the idea that Islam is some ideologically intolerant collection of radical haters and that christianity is the epitome of tolerance and good and turn the other cheek sensibility is erroneous. You have fools and idiots and monsters on both sides.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 07-29-2005 at 03:38 PM. |
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07-29-2005, 06:57 PM | #113 | |||||
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And even so - is he calling for Christians to kill Muslims?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 07-29-2005 at 06:58 PM. |
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07-30-2005, 02:56 AM | #114 | |||
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If one looks at the history, even as recorded in the Koran, one will see Muhammad and his immediate successors practicing a violent Jihad, ready to pulverize "innocents" and many that had differing belief systems. Therefore I can see where Falwell was coming from, though I'm edgy about the risk he's taking as regards setting up an unnecessary barrier between Christians and Muslims. Quote:
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I believe that there is a spiritual battle going on here. Satan is using radical Islam to attack us, as he did centuries ago, before the European and American Empires caused Islam to fall behind economically, and then collapse. Starting in the seventh century AD, Satan used Islam to conquer many nations. Arabia, Egypt, Iran, the entirety of the Sassanid Empire, the Byzantine Empire, Venice, Satan led Muslims to attack us all the way to the edge of the Western World. Then Islam fell away, something I actually believe is predicted in the Bible. Now it is making a resurgance, something also predicted (though I could be wrong about the predictions). I believe Satan is using Islam to attempt to conquer the world. This does not mean that I am disgusted against Muslims. I think that in many ways, many of them are morally superior to many Christians. I admire their determination and their faith (that of the liberals and that of the radicals). They believe much that is true, and they seek truth eagerly. Us Christians in the West are often too lax. Where we are lax, the Muslims (radicals and liberals alike) are disciplined. They preach an uncompromising truth. Liberalism, along with afluence and mishandled freedom undermine and weaken our spiritual strength. I hope I can show you my point of view. It's a spiritual war that Franklin Graham and Benny Hinn are acknowledging openly and talking about. They view Islam (the ORIGINAL and REVIVING Islam) as a tool of Satan. This is the Islam that blows up buildings full of innocent people, and that conquered nations without provocation. This is the visible and blatant "tool of Satan". They are in no way advocating mistreatment of Muslim humans. They are speaking from their point of view, and in my opinion, with clear vision. They aren't saying "hate Muslims", but "fight the spirits that direct radical Muslims! To do that, we must mend our own ways!" That's the message that they're preaching. Liberal Muslims are a more complicated piece in the puzzle than radicals. I don't believe that these are evil or twisted people. I don't really care to go deeply into my opinions regarding the liberals, if you don't mind. Perhaps when you meet Christ, we'll discuss it further. It would be far, far easier to have this conversation with you if you knew Christ personally. If you were positive of the truth of the Bible because of having experienced its truth, then we could really talk on the same wavelength. As is, I can only talk from my delusion, or you from your blindfold, and we're fairly stuck. I really, really long to pray with you. If you want to meet Christ, please tell me, over PM if you wish. He would save you from your sins. When Christ comes into people, he doesn't leave them to do all the work of dejunking their lives. Through his miraculous presence, he weeds out their souls himself, taking care personally of those things that are too difficult for them. He does those things, not them. It says in the scripture, "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Out of curiosity, have you ever read the Bible?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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07-31-2005, 04:23 PM | #115 | ||
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and i said that while these particular examples have always been the same throughout human history more or less (sometimes much less), technology might change even this basic assumption, assuming that one day we advanced to the point that death had little or no meaning but, on the less "scifi" level, those basics don't include the hundreds of other things many different religions deem as "right" and "wrong"... if people just stuck to the nearly universal secular rights and wrongs, we'd probably live in a lot more peaceful world
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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07-31-2005, 10:08 PM | #116 |
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and if my grandmother had four wheels and an engine she'd be a car
but she doesn't and she isnt', besides 2012 we'll all be gone according to the prophesies. |
08-01-2005, 12:51 AM | #117 |
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I don't understand you.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-01-2005, 02:45 PM | #118 | |||
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-01-2005 at 02:47 PM. |
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08-01-2005, 03:47 PM | #119 | ||||||||
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Heres a nice one for you by the way. If the others were too mild and could be explained away in “context”. How bout Jimmy Swaggert for you: Mr. Swaggert (well known and highly praised by many many Christians), referred to the Prophet Muhammad on his program as a "sex deviant," a "pervert," and a "pedophile". Please explain the context on that one and how it doesn’t incite hate and anger. He also called for the expulsion of all foreign Muslim university students in the United States and for profiling of airline passengers “with a diaper on their head and a fan-belt around their waist.” Of American Muslims, Swaggart said: “We ought to tell every other Muslim living in this nation that if you say one word, you're gone." Nope… no preaching hate and anger there… Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 08-01-2005 at 04:00 PM. |
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08-01-2005, 04:06 PM | #120 | |||
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Swaggert's comments are disgusting, but again, I don't see him saying "go kill Muslims." My guess is that the comments about being a pedophile refer to a child bride he took. As far as "Why try to be divisive?" - I don't think it's right to try to be divisive. However, I don't think it's right to say "everyone is right, let's all get along", either. That's illogical, as well as harmful, IMO. I think there IS truth, and it CAN be discovered, and people should stand up for what they believe is true, as long as they are loving and respectful of others.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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