10-22-2004, 12:32 PM | #101 |
The Insufferable
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Allow me to venture that, according to Tolkien, our world was supposed to be Middle Earth. And since the Bible originates in our world (Middle Earth!), and the discussion is mostly still about good and evil... the answer is Yes! Both!
Okay. Back on topic. *fights of the Pnume with a stick* I maintain nonetheless that ying-yang dualism can... Eek. Sorry about that. I maintain my statement that evil is qualitative, rather than quantitative. While evil may or may not be measurable on the scale, something is evil regardless of how evil you think it is. A 'little evil' is qualitatively the same as a great evil.
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10-22-2004, 03:05 PM | #102 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Yes, but people were talking about calling a person evil. I think we can judge whether a particular act is evil or not, but can a person be called evil if they do some evil and some good? I was trying to describe how/when I would call a person evil.
Or if you want to get into Boolean logic - should evil be 0 (which is what is is acc'd to Tolkien) and good be 1, and should the equation be written with an "AND" or an "OR" operator? Or is there not an equation at all for this? type-of-person = evil-act-1 AND evil-act-2 ... AND evil-act-n AND good-act-1 AND good-act-2 ... AND good-act-n. In this equation, if there are any evil deeds, then type-of-person would equal "0", so the person would be evil, even if they had predominately good acts But if we used an "OR" operator, then if there were any good deeds, the person would be good, even if they had predominately evil acts. I think I'll let God make the final call and just worry about myself and getting my number of evil acts down! So what do you guys think of my trend-leading-to-loss-of-freewill idea?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-22-2004, 05:20 PM | #103 |
Elf Lord
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Trend becomes fact in this instance of will to self or other than God(cf. Gollum, Saruman, Sauron, the late Kings of Numenor, Melkor, Lotho, etc. in ME; see also, Weston and Devine in the Space Trilogy by Lewis, all the non-remaining ghosts in THE GREAT DIVORCE;Tom Riddle aka Lord Voldemort, Bartimaeus Crouch, JR, Death Eaters in Harry Potter series 1-5th books).
Trend becomes fact when willing the good or God (cf. Bilbo. Sam, Frodo, Boromir, Galadriel, etc. in ME; Ransom, Perelandrian Eve and Adam, Mark Stoddard in the Space Trilogy, the remaining ghosts in TGD; Snape, Sirius Black, Mundungus, etc. in HP). This great truth is summed up well by Albus Dumbledore (paraphrasing) telling Harry it is not our abilities but our choices that make us what we are.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-22-2004, 05:46 PM | #104 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I like the picture CSL gives in TGDivorce - the Tragedian, and the little teensy guy by his side who is the actual person ... who gets smaller and smaller and finally disappears ...
*sees SGH looking this way* ... which of course REMINDS me of Middle Earth and, um, evil things!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-22-2004, 09:15 PM | #105 |
Elf Lord
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Hey, Rian,
Why should SGH look at this post suspiciously? I did a FABULOUS job of getting us back into a ME mileu so realistic that the wind wafting through Fanghorn would near take your hat off - if you had one! And then there was Wayfarer's superb connective post (notice how nice it is to have and insufferable one around from time to time?) showing the equivalence of ME and our prior discussions in real time (both qualitative and quantitative aspects, rest assured). So a small, teensy digression into the lands of TGD connecting as they do with all that has gone before (get it?) shouldn't really get SGH's attention. Or are you just rabbity? The implosion of the self which is the inherent nature of evil is actually shown in the same mode in ME and TGD. In TGD all the grey town is nearly subatomic in size though it seems vast to the even more miniscule inhabitants concerned only with themselves. In ME all evil becomes focused in a ring which is incomparably smaller than the Crack of Doom where it is vanquished. The spiritual reality conveyed in ME and TGD is that self will leads to the black hole phenomena - not existence in any meaningful sense! OUCH! SEE !
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 Last edited by inked : 10-22-2004 at 09:21 PM. |
10-22-2004, 11:55 PM | #106 | |
The Insufferable
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Ultimately, as far as my mind can understand, evil in its simplest form must be 'non-good'... or a lack of good. Which means that as long as there is a possibility for things to become more good, evil is present. And in that sense... if we are going to treat an act as qualitatively good or evil, then any act that does not have the best motive and fails to bring about the best possible motive in the best possible manner. ... Okay. No pressure. On the other hand... utilizing a strict definition such as that above, then we can't always say someone is good because they have good intentions - they might still be doing an act of evil (and, as can be said, the road to hell is paved with good intentions). And really, when we get right down to it, when we think 'a person is evil', what we mean is 'they do evil things, and we know about it'. Now, if we accept that evil is an absence of good, then every person who is not perfect is qualitatively evil.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 10-22-2004 at 11:59 PM. |
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10-23-2004, 12:50 AM | #107 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Anyway, I was just havin' some fun Not that any of this boolean stuff matters! (at least in this discussion) I just thought it would be fun to try to translate into mathie-type-stuff and speculate away... Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-23-2004, 12:54 AM | #108 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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We got her fooled, guys!! Quote:
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No! No! Come BACK, self! *smack* Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-23-2004, 12:57 AM | #109 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-23-2004, 10:39 AM | #110 | |||||
Queen of Nargothrond
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Inked, you're pretty new here so I'll let you slide, this time.
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"Whither go you?" she said. "North away." he said: "to the swords, and the siege, and the walls of defence - that yet for a while in Beleriand rivers may run clean, leaves spring, and birds build their nests, ere Night comes." AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-23-2004, 10:47 AM | #111 |
Elf Lord
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Thank you, your Golden Haired Sisterness. Most honored am I to be nonWHAPPED!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-23-2004, 11:05 AM | #112 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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10-23-2004, 12:33 PM | #113 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Great quote, Attalus!
*applies bandaids liberally* I'll be good now, SGH!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
10-24-2004, 11:41 AM | #114 | |
Elven Warrior
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10-24-2004, 02:04 PM | #115 | |
Swan-Knight of Dol Amroth
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Quote:
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"What song the Sirens sang, or what name Achilles assumed when he hid himself among women, though puzzling questions are not beyond conjecture." - Sir Thomas Browne, Urn Burial. |
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10-24-2004, 03:44 PM | #116 |
The Insufferable
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Yes, there are no bannas. And no wholly evil (that is, lacking any good characteristic) creatures.
But I wasn't trying to quantify good and evil, but qualify them. And for a creature to be truly good they must be free from any evil - otherwise the evil that is present will mar everything that they do. While I agree that a completely evil creature would be a null-entity (because existance itself is a good thing), in abstract terms I find it most applicable to reverse it - good is Zero, because true good is the absence of evil, or perfection. Human experience is almost asymptotic.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
10-27-2004, 12:01 PM | #117 |
Elf Lord
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Wayfarer,
Is the absence of evil perfection? Are there degrees of perfection? If Melkor had chosen obedience once the thought of disobedience ocurred to him, would Arda have been more perfect?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-16-2004, 11:26 PM | #118 | |
Elven Loremaster
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The Book of Job is (according to Protestant points of view) a teaching story. I don't know how the Catholics view it. The story is supposed to provide a lesson in faith. We don't know why God allows evil to happen to us, but we do know that he loves us and wants us to love him in return. Job knew he had done nothing wrong, but he was wrongly accused of having sinned by men he had called his friends. That is an all too common occurrence. Rather than accept Job as a man of faith who was being tested by God, his friends assumed he had done something wrong and called upon him to confess his sin. On another level, in English Literature (the KJV being the subject of study), the Book of Job has been called by some critics a study in human busibodiness. That is, it examines how people go about minding other people's business without really knowing what is wrong. In the end, the self-appointed judges get their comeuppance. Job is also noted for introducing some aspects of Satan not previously seen (in Biblical literature). |
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11-16-2004, 11:50 PM | #119 | |||||
Elven Loremaster
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When Tolkien was struggling with the nature of Orcs (in those notes and essays published in "Myths Transformed" in Morgoth's Ring), he indicated that it required a great deal of Melkor's power and concentration to totally or nearly totally suppress their independent will -- and they by nature rebelled against his domination. Hence, the Orcs were struggling to be free of Melkor's corrupting influence, even if they in the long run committed their own evil acts. That is, Tolkien gave even the Orcs the freedom to choose between complying totally with their master's will or defying it, and many of them (perhaps all) -- when allowed to make their own choices -- chose to defy that will. They sought to express themselves freely. Tolkien clearly tried to strip "sin" of all its literary accretions and take it back to the basics. After all, these Middle-earth stories are supposedly set in a simpler time, and are pre-Biblically disposed. That is, what theology they provide is rudimentary, not sophisticated. In a footnote to Letter 211, Tolkien wrote: Quote:
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In order to avoid the fallacy of presenting everything in terms of "good guys" and "bad guys", Tolkien allowed evil to emerge as a result of choice, without trying to explain the spiritual ramifications of the choices made (we don't actually know what is to happen to the Balrogs and other Maiar who follow Melkor down into his nihlism -- that fate is to be determined in a later age, or at least revealed). In Letter 154, Tolkien responded to criticism of The Lord of the Rings which made it out to be simply "Good guys versus Bad guys" by writing: Quote:
Evil is not given a status equal to Iluvatar -- it doesn't even approach Iluvatar's capability. In fact, Melkor never understands (in The Silmarillion) that the Flame Imperishable, which he seeks for in the Void, is with Iluvatar and not something separate (not separate in the way that Melkor is distinct from Iluvatar) from him. Continued in next message. |
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11-16-2004, 11:52 PM | #120 | |
Elven Loremaster
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Continued from previous message.
There is, in fact, only a slight foreshadowing of the triple aspects of God in Christian teachings. Ea might be something like The Word (which is Christ), but The Silmarillion and all related works would fail to meet the criteria of the Nicene Creed (Note: I grabbed this translation at random -- there may be better translations available): Quote:
So, evil is neither equal to good nor dispossessed by it (that is, the struggle between good and evil is really between those who adhere to Melkor and those who adhere to Iluvatar, but the Biblical struggle between God and Satan has not yet begun). Evil is inferior because it is confined to Ea. Iluvatar is always in clear control and he allows history to unfold in accordance with his own desires. Everything Melkor attempts "redounds" (contributes) to Iluvatar's glory. |
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