06-24-2008, 02:41 PM | #101 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I'm thinking more specifically about the way that sis has consistently dismissed anything said by Lief or myself on the matter on the grounds that we're men. Now she seems to have taken it the next level by making insinuations of misogyny. So, anything I say about it is, in her eyes, null and void (though apparently, the fact that IR is a male does not invalidate his opinion, for some reason), and will do no good. However, it appears that it can do harm, leading to accusations of a cruel nature which run contrary to all my opinion and sentiment. Therefore, it's best just not to engage sis.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
06-24-2008, 02:41 PM | #102 | |
Elf Lord
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A fetus is a human, however. That radically alters the ethics of the situation, for to save temporary discomfort and pain (and possibly economic and social disadvantage) you're killing another human.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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06-24-2008, 02:48 PM | #103 |
Entmoot Minister of Foreign Affairs
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Well let's take this to the next level then and say that if indeed these fetuses are humans than God is indeed a cruel, cruel being, letting hundreds of thousands of souls (i.e. fetuses being human beings..) perish beneath the sky. What kind of God is that who loves us all equally? Why does the body of this so-called human being resemble more the body of a relatively equally developed chicken fetus? Or the fetus of a chimpanzee? Doesn't it ring a bell? It astonishes me.. truly.. that this does not ring a thousand bells.
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06-24-2008, 03:03 PM | #104 | |
Elf Lord
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Now, bringing that up has led Lief, again, to impugn my honesty. You haven't exactly leapt to my defense there, Dude. I addressed my remark to you in an entirely different typeface, to indicate that you were NOT being "ipso facto discredited." So I think your withdrawl on the basis of 'Sis is too mean to talk to." is a little odd. I'm a vegetarian, as it happens. I take life seriously enough that I don't even eat shellfish. So when I say "People take life all the time" I'm not just being cute, I'm really looking at how people establish their lines, because everyone draws them.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-24-2008, 04:08 PM | #105 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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You seemed to several times do so throughout the thread, when you would respond to us with words to the effect of "No one who hasn't been through pregnancy (and most of you never will) really knows what is going on here".
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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06-24-2008, 04:13 PM | #106 |
Elf Lord
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PAX.
It's a very difficult discussion to have, because people DO come at it from such different perspectives and life experiences.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-24-2008, 06:41 PM | #107 |
Elf Lord
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SACA, YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY ONE DIRECTLY AFFECTED by PREGNANCY, alas. There is the sperm donor, the zygote to embryo to fetus to infant person, the hospital staff if you deliver (or miscarry), the physician(s) and/or midwife, etc, in fact, the whole society. No one else experiences with quite the same biological intimacy as you do, true. But that's a biological reality - carved in DNA and tissue beyond all remediation.
That biological intimacy does not divorce you from all considerations by others. It is not a license for actions consequential to previous choices to contracept or not or to engage in sexual relations (or artificial insemination or in vitro procedures) with the full knowledge that such sexual congress could result in PREGNANCY despite all precautions against. By the by, on the issue of tissue. It it's a baby elephant, whale, seal, bovine, canine, or feline from the moment of conception and whilest visualized on sonograms on nature programs, how is it that when it's a human its not from the moment of conception onward?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
06-24-2008, 07:35 PM | #108 |
Elf Lord
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Well, I wouldn't say it was a "baby elephant on sonogram' or whatever. I would say it was potentially.
And, while my retirement benefits (and health care, quality of life, etc.) will depend partially on people choosing to have big industrious, well-educated families who see it as their first task to take care of me and nurture my crotchets, I don't, therefore, think it is the job of government to force them to do so. If they choose to be ignorant layabouts, well, such is life. Therefore, the vast web of folk who might like to make a buck off my pregnancy will have to train for something else, if the female portion of the population fail to keep them in enough work. I kinda doubt that will happen, though. Breeding is a very worthwhile activity, even done by choice.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-24-2008, 08:47 PM | #109 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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06-24-2008, 10:33 PM | #110 | |
Thain of Randomness
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The fetus is a person at conception. If this isn't true, then when does he or she become a person? After 9 months? Are premies not people because they're less developed? Are mentally disabled people not people?
When a person kills a pregnant woman, they're charged with two murders. So the law obviously agrees that a baby is alive enough to be murdered. And yet abortion doesn't count as murder. Does it depend on the circumstance? Is the baby only alive when someone decides that he or she is? I would also like to add that when I was in the womb the doctor did a test on my mom, and it was determined that I would be mentally disabled. However, I'm not mentally disabled. You don't always know how things will turn out. You don't know that the baby is better off dead rather than being put up for adoption. If you're worried about the baby finding a good home, there's always the option to find adoptive parents, having interviews with them, etc., insted of dropping the baby off at the fire station etc. The baby could end up with a great life, and you shouldn't take it away from him or her. Quote:
I would just like to say that I haven't had direct experience (I'm 14, so I think that I shouldn't have direct experience yet), but I can still have my own opinion about the subject.
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Here we were trying to take Rommel, when who do we kidnap but Admiral Todley himself. What? Hahahaha. That wasn't the plan you know. - Col. Crittendon Monk: I'm 100% sure that she probably killed him. Stottlemeyer: What does that mean? Monk: 95%... I feel like Pepé Le Pew when he look up "pew" in the dictionary. *French accent* Le pew? Moi? Noo. -Shawn Spencer *British accent* It's a bobble head Bobbie! *head bob* -Special Agen Seely Booth |
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06-24-2008, 11:11 PM | #111 | |
Elven Maiden
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Oh, except one. I should've injected it with Jenova cells and watched to see what would happen instead... (haha) Last edited by katya : 06-24-2008 at 11:14 PM. |
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06-24-2008, 11:40 PM | #112 | |
Magnificent Master of Buckland
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Heh, usually parasites don't want to leave the host. Or have such human characteristics. And it's interesting that none of you (at least I don't think) deny that a fetus is alive, but rather you don't classify it as human because it hasn't lost absolute dependency on the scrictly the mother and is therefore "parasitic". Because it is alive, from a scientific perspective even.
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But it is the way of my people to use light words at such times and say less than they mean. We fear to say to much. It robs us of the right words when a jest is out of place. -Meriadoc Brandybuck Is there anything I can do that wouldn't inconvenience me?.-Adrian Monk Hogan: What's a definate factor that we can count on? Newkirk: We don't know what we're doing. Do you wanna split a pineapple? -Shawn Spencer |
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06-24-2008, 11:54 PM | #113 | |
Kraken King
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Maybe because they are all bipedal, and require relatively he same organs and structural machinery to do all the things they do. Just saying. A larval clam doesnt look like a human, though. Even in their relatively equal stages of developement. Tunicate larva, on the other hand, do share a common characteristic. I'm suprised, Coffeehouse, you let this one slip by. However, the end result is entirely different. The gene structure is almost entirely different (introns AND exons, here) so this argument is somewhat irrelevent, to me. And dont ANYONE bring up the famous (or maybe infamous ) "gill slits" that a human foetus posseses. I dont even want to hear about that antiquated notion, please.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-24-2008, 11:56 PM | #114 | |
Elf Lord
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Viruses use the cells of a host to protect and extend themselves. They are 'part of the body' at that point. Not teaching adequate science makes some of these points harder to understand in this country.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-25-2008, 12:00 AM | #115 | |||
Kraken King
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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06-25-2008, 12:08 AM | #116 |
Elf Lord
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No, not always. Not even often. The anti-choice folks have enacted some local statutes, usually called something like "intentional homicide of an unborn child' in an effort to establish legal rights for the fetus, and as part of their attack on women's right to choose. However, even where such laws have been passed, the "crime" may depend on whether it occurred in conjunction with another crime (usually commission of an active felony) and a number of other factors, and may be classified as manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, negligent homicide, or any of a number of other classifications. Some states specifically assign a date or viability test to these statutes.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-25-2008, 12:14 AM | #117 |
Elf Lord
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That's what I get for trying to respond to several points without running as long as Lief. One of the arguments, higher up the thread was 'The embryo is part of the mother, hence not a parasite.' I'm merely pointing out that shared DNA doesn't render ALL residents off limits.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
06-25-2008, 12:26 AM | #118 |
Kraken King
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It's only half shared.
A virus injects its entire genome through the cytoplasmic membrane of a host cell, and reverse engineers itself into the host genome (suprisingly similar to human copulation) then causes the host cell to abandon all its metabolic processes and comply to its own needs, depending on what path the virus initiates in its "host". A human foetus, on the other hand, shares the DNA of its mother and father, whereas the virus' DNA is completely its own, simply hiding among the genes of the host. There is no sharing f DNA, there is forceful invasion and disruption of metabolic pathways within a host cell, a foetus is not doing real harm to the mother (aside from medical complications) only adding to the work load. And while that is significant, I find the comparison a little distasteful. btw, I love it when debates like this involve more friendly smilies than sarcastic or angry ones. More fun to read and engage in.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
06-25-2008, 12:31 AM | #119 | |
Elf Lord
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But I have big lunch packing before camp tomorrow, so I can't keep hanging here, even though you're such a night-owl, these days.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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06-25-2008, 12:33 AM | #120 | |
Kraken King
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Have fun camping.
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One of my top ten favorite movies. "You ever try to flick a fly? "No." "It's a waste of time." "Can you see it?" "No." "It's right there!" "Where? "There!" "What is it?" "A crab." "A crab? I dont see any crab." "How?! It's right there!!" "Where?" "There!!!!" "Oh." -Excerpts from A Tale of Two Morons |
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