I'm writing an essay on relativism in LOTR

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Wulažg
I wasn't necessarily saying that thoughts have as much impact as actual actions but they do have empirical results and therefore can be also considered actions technically. Plus when you think about it what really matters is what a person means to do, especially if the others can sense the intentions. Someone being nice doesn't mean a THING if you know they don't mean it. That occurs a lot. People can on a rudimentary and unconcious level tell whether someone is lying or not, in words or actions. People acting out of character are classified as "odd" at the very least etc.

Listen to what you are saying....

People "acting out of character". "Lying".

Thoughts can't have empirical results until they are translated into actions. And yes, someone being nice does mean something, even if they don't mean it... we call it being polite. Which we generally rate above being rude.

If you "sense" anything "evil" about a person's intentions, it's because they are giving off "signals", and that is an action also. The thoughts aren't leaping out of their head into yours...

I do not believe Melkor had been planning his discord before the Music began. Actually Time didn't exist yet so there is no "had", "been" or "before" (or "yet") to speak of, but you know what I mean. It was already after the Holy Ones had begun their great musics that Melkor journeyed through the pathless Void alone, seeking the Flame Imperishable and conceiving thoughts that were wholly other than the mind of Eru. It was from these thoughts that the Discord of Melkor arose.

No, likely he wasn't planning it. But it happened. And actually prior to the music, he had spent time alone in the void also, I think. However that's not Melkor's main flaw. His main flaw, the one that leads him to take the "evil" action of raising discord, is pride. Pride in the gifts he had been given. Perhaps justifiable pride even. But until he acted in that manner, he hadn't actually done anything "evil".

[Beleg Strongbow]

Originally posted by Blackheart His main flaw, the one that leads him to take the "evil" action of raising discord, is pride.

And a lack of sympathy.

[Wulažg]

Exactly. Pride alone is neither good nor bad, but lack of empathy/sympathy makes pride evil.

[Blackheart]

His pride is what underlies his lack of empathy.

Look at Manwe for example. No pride, and he has empathy.

At the bottom of Melkor's lack of empathy is the idea that he deserves better than to be second (pride). And if he isn't getting what he wants, then why should anyone else?

[Wulažg]

Thoughts/feelings do have an effect on the world, albeit a lesser one than actions, but an effect nevertheless. Therefore they MUST be taken into consideration.

[Blackheart]

Thoughts and feelings have no effect on the world, therefore they cannot be taken into account.

There is no translation of thought or feeling into effect without action.

[Wulažg]

ok, I'll grant you this point. Thought only indirectly affects the world. Ah well. What were we arguing about before this point? I seem to remember you saying something about empathy increasing in some cases evil. That doesn't make any sense.

Explain yourself(military tribunal style)

[Faramir]

Gee, sounds complicated, I don't think I could ever do something so complex and long...*shudders*

[Wulažg]

"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here"?


Come, join the Dark Side...


MWA HA HA HA HA!!!

[Wayfarer]

Pride alone is neither good nor bad, but lack of empathy/sympathy makes pride evil.

Actually, it is a specefic form of pride that is Evil.

Aule, for example, takes pleasure in crafting. However, he 'gives freely' and seems to enjoy the works of others as much as his own. That doesn't really fit the definition of pride.

Melkor, in the end, only cared about things for what they could get him. That's unhealthy pride.

Pride is being concerned mainly for oneself. At one end of the spectrum, the elves and the good valar took joy in things for thier own sake- the trees and the silmarils, and everything else under the sun, were all mostly beautiful in thier on right. On the other hand, Melkor and Ungoliant were so proud that they cared only to satisfy thier bloated desires.

Most of us fall somewhere in the middle- we enjoy the LOTR simply for it's own sake, but we are all too often self-centered.

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Wulažg
ok, I'll grant you this point. Thought only indirectly affects the world. Ah well. What were we arguing about before this point? I seem to remember you saying something about empathy increasing in some cases evil. That doesn't make any sense.

Explain yourself(military tribunal style)

Empathy is the ability to visualize oneself in another's position.

It is a method of conceptualizing knowledge, the impact of actions on another individual.

There's nothing inherant in the definition that says it has to be used for "good" or beneficial purposes.

[Ñólendil]

His main flaw, the one that leads him to take the "evil" action of raising discord, is pride.

I agree. I don't agree with Wulazg's [I can't find that special "z" on my keyboard] statement that pride in itself is neithor good nor bad. There is a certain kind of pride I think is good, but the arrogant pride in people I think, in itself, bad. Not necessarily harmful to others, but logically harmful to yourself. That kind of pride reaps no benefits. I don't think pride alone makes anyone evil, but no one's saying that either. Pride is the seed of Melkor that took fruit, it is the beginning of Melkor's fall (and that of Lucifer's, which is no coincidence). It's the classic story of the great and powerful angel that sets himself above God and becomes the Enemy. Lack of empathy with sympathy, pity or mercy just goes along with the whole deal, Melkor became evil in every way and there was no good feeling, thought or action left to him in the end.

Melkor, in the end, only cared about things for what they could get him. That's unhealthy pride.

It's also avarice and gluttony, I think. The three go hand in hand, don't they?

[Wulažg]

If there is more than one type of pride, then they are seperate terms OR there is another quality in combination with "pure" pride. I know I'm dealing with semantics but that is this whole discussion, semantics.

[Blackheart]

Errr. If you guys are going to go semantics, then basically the entire thing will boil down to the fact that Melkor wanted what he wanted, and not what Eru wanted.

That's rebellion, and you could make a case that it could happen regardless of pride, avarice, gluttony, or empathy.

[Wulažg]

Of course it COULD have, but the question is what there was this time...

[Blackheart]

If you are going to base a construct on a specific instance or happenstance, then your definition is going to be very limited, not to mention innacurate....

[Wulažg]

I thought the point was to start generally and then file it down to a very fine point...

oh and in your previous post you forgot some of them. Where are the rest of the 7?

[BeardofPants]

Interesting points, Wulažg & Blackheart. I have nothing to contribute at this given time; just subscribing to the thread.

Oh, and:

Pride, Sloth, Greed, Glutony, Wrath, Envy, and Lust.

[Cirdan]

The arguement about Eru being separate from human definitions of evil is interesting since he only exists in a book. The intent of the author, the true "God" in the book is all that matters. Inferences as to who was motivated to do what exist only in the mind of the readers and the author. If it's not on paper it speculation.

Evil is not a substance or a being. It is thought, idea, or action that manifests unprovoked malevolence and disregard against another conscious and aware being. Thoughts can be evil if they are communicated to a being willing to act on them. Pride may be a "sin" but hardly evil.

Was Melkor an "evil" character? Yes, in that he only exhibited evil actions, which, i believe was JRRT's intended role for him. The corruption of Sauron left him, in the end, devoid of good intentions in any form. Regardless of him origins, he become a being intent on mavelont action it the realm of him power and existance, within the content of the written material.

There hasn't been much discussion of the "good" characters. Is good just a benevolent state of mind in a character? Are mistakes evil if the result of the mistake is evil or just "tragic"? Do all of Isildur's acts of heroic good fall away as he succumb's to lust for power at the expense of all of middle earth?

So, would it be evil to put a few arrows in the back of an orc never known to have harmed anyone?

Was it evil to unchain Melkor, given the results of his freedom?

[Blackheart]

Originally posted by Wulažg
I thought the point was to start generally and then file it down to a very fine point...

oh and in your previous post you forgot some of them. Where are the rest of the 7?

Like I can remember them all.

I bet BOP knows... oh wait she does