11-10-2001, 04:18 AM | #101 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Darth
so i KNOW what you are looking for can you give me a few examples where you thought i was flaming? thanks
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-10-2001, 05:31 AM | #102 |
Hobbit-Huorn
RPG Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 695
|
Afro-elf: As I mentioned earlier, the solution to the inductive mistake is through practicality. Rationally, because inductive reasoning is flawed, no matter how well those processes you listed work there is NO way to determine that they will work the next time you use them. Obviously, however, our mind argues otherwise.
You are a product of your upbringing, and belief in patterns is imprinted in every culture far more deeply than religion is. You grow up believing in the properties of patterns, never realizing their intrinsic fallibility. Our minds convince us to take the practical route - that, from our experience (though it cannot be a logical basis), it is much easier to function in society if we accept these things as true. If I assume that my car will work, and not explode, I can actually use it to drive around. If, however, I assume it will turn into a butterfly when I turn the ignition, I probably won't do very well in society. However, though practical, it is still illogical. It becomes a matter of learned behavior. We assume that, since these things work time and time again, they will continue to do so. As you have already conceded, however, this is based on inductive reasoning, therefore has no true logical connection. If you wish to give proof of science, I challenge you to do so through purely deductive reasoning. In other words, take gravity. If I drop a rock, it will fall. I am sure you consider this a guaranteed truth. However, this is only because of empirical evidence. Can you give me a reason that the rock will fall, without using any knowledge derived from personal experience or previous experiences or experiments of others? I don't think you can. Here is a logical proof: 1) In the end, since the world is physical, all evidence is empirical. 2) Empirical knowledge is inductive. 3) Inductive knowledge is flawed. 4) Scientific evidence is invalid. 5) All science is unproven. Because of this, to some extent, science does operate on faith. If you wish to list, again, all of its accomplishments (which I have shown and you have, earlier, admitted are not proof), then you are mearly doing the same as any christian person quoting from the bible - trying to use something not grounded in definitive logic as the basis for your argument. Science, in the end, is just another belief system. It is more solid, and does have points of rationality. But it comes down, in the end, to beliefs once again. Inductive fallacies aside, it can NEVER be 100% proven.
__________________
Through Truth, Power. |
11-10-2001, 10:25 AM | #103 | |||
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
actually its a hardwired biological mechanism that goes deeper than culture Quote:
Quote:
My argument is not if science is 100 % provible. but that it's track record gives it more CREDENCE than faith. i think that it would be an error to say they have equal relaiblity to say that tomorrow that the sun MIGHT rise in the west does not undo the feats of empircism's past. I mentioned before that it gives RELIABLE however tentative information about the world. I might word it this way just because you can not prove/disprove anything does not give equal weight to all things the only "RELIABLE" knowledge we have is induction yes it may not be 100% but it has proven track record to cite that something maybe not work in the future does undo what it has done SO FAR maybe we are arguing two different points i THINK you are aiming to show the logical flaw of induction i shooting for the what has it done point i don't think anyone would be willing to give up everything, to accept everything JUST because of a logical flaw unfortunately the only means of PRACTICAL knowledge we have is induction just because it is not PERFECT does not mean it is not useful i would say it this way the list I made earlier placed side by side with the benefits of FAITH (empirical benefits) and I think that there would be a vast difference fundamentally they be similar but pratically there is a vast gap I will close this way induction may have its flaws but it certainly has its benefits thank you for pushing me intellectually, its a much needed stimulus
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
|||
11-10-2001, 10:39 AM | #104 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Tampa
Posts: 327
|
Science can never replace religion. Science is a part of the world, true, and is good. But if you think that there is no other truth besides science, why are we here? As I stated before, science and Christianity are not at odds. History and science back up the Bible.
The whole Judas' death issue... Here's Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. Acts 1:17-19 With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Here's what people say. He hanged himself, the rope broke after he was dead and his body burst open. You mentioned flaws in Genesis. Do you mean creation?
__________________
The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. |
11-10-2001, 12:06 PM | #105 | |||
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
Quote:
yes there was the roman empire egypt still exist athens still stands there were semetic tribes but genesis no the flood no miracles no Quote:
PEOPLE say that but the BIBLE doesn't. what about the hundreds of other flaws listed?
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
|||
11-10-2001, 02:46 PM | #106 | |||||||||||||
Hobbit-Huorn
RPG Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 695
|
To Finmandos:
Quote:
To Afro-elf: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps we need to explain what it is again. Inductive reasoning is using past evidence to give strength to future evidence. Example: Sun has risen every day before, it will do so tommorow. However, how do we know this is true? You are arguing that Inductive reasoning has worked in the past (by showing what it has done so far), so will work in the future. That statement itself is inductive logic, so Cannot Be Used To Prove Inductive Logic. It would be like me saying: Everything I say is true. When challenged on this point, I would use, as evidence, that everything I say is true, so if I say it is true, it is. That is not rational - that is using something unproven to prove itself. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Here is one, simple, challenge: Show me that gravity works without pointing to anything using experimentation or empirical evidence. Do that, and your argument might be able to have some weight. But I am positive that, eventually, backtracking along any argument route will result in using empirical evidence.
__________________
Through Truth, Power. |
|||||||||||||
11-10-2001, 03:58 PM | #107 |
Queen of Nargothrond
Administrator Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Akron, Ohio - USA
Posts: 7,121
|
In a nutshell, faith is a feeling, science is a fact. As Spock once said in Star Trek: "If I drop a hammer on a planet that has a positive gravity, I need not see the hammer fall to know that it has actually fallen." Faith, is accepted without question, and requires no proof. But if you wish to prove substance in faith outside of your faith alone, then proof is the only way to make anothers doubt otherwise.
Last edited by Sister Golden Hair : 11-10-2001 at 03:59 PM. |
11-10-2001, 04:52 PM | #108 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
mathron
as to your challenge I can not here I will concede defeat along the SOLE lines of logic however in this part of the world it is late and I'll switch my attack to logic itself tomorrow which MAY be self defeating but oh well
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-10-2001, 06:39 PM | #109 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
I recant
I will not be attacking logic but induction but I need to retreat to marshall my forces at to better prepare them to combat such a worthy adversary so i'll be withdrawing from the field for a few days so in the words of arnold I'LL BE BACK
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-11-2001, 01:28 AM | #110 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Lothlorien
Posts: 216
|
Quote:
first off I dont know where you got this but psalms 137:9 says "...and the moon and stars to rule the night. His faithful love endures forever" DT3:6 was reffering to the victory over Og of Bashan, who were rebeling against the lord. Whould you be so offended if this happend to the Taliban? LEV 19:20-22 tells of a man who had sex with a slave girl, he repented and brought offerings, and was thus forgiven of his sins. next time read the whole story, I hate seeing people loosing faith in the lord because they read some quotes taken out of context by some blind fool.
__________________
"When evil people come to destroy me, when my enemies and foes attack me, they will stumble and fall. Though a mighty army surrounds me, my heart will know no fear." -Psalms 27:2-3 -Dare you venture into Gollum's Lair? JESUS LIVES! Last edited by Sakata : 11-11-2001 at 01:31 AM. |
|
11-11-2001, 02:26 AM | #111 | |
Hobbit-Huorn
RPG Moderator Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 695
|
Quote:
__________________
Through Truth, Power. |
|
11-11-2001, 05:31 AM | #112 | |||
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
first you most have not looked in the correct area here are the quotes from different versions of the bible SAB psalm 137:9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. NIV Psalm 137:9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. NLT Psalm 137 9 Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks! NASB Psalm 137 9 How blessed will be the one who seizes and <*1> dashes your little ones Against the rock. KJV 9 Psalm 137 9Happy the one who takes and dashes Your little ones against the rock! NKJVPsalm 137 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. RSV Psalm 137 9 Happy shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock! KJ21 Psalm 137 9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. NIV FOR Psalm 137 9 he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks. YLT Psalm 137 9 O the happiness of him who doth seize, And hath dashed thy sucklings on the rock! DARBY Psalm 137 9 Happy he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock. THOSE bibles have it. to paraphase you Quote:
Quote:
Maybe check out cnn and the video behind the veil it will give a veiw of the men, women and children that you may not have seen before the point of LEV is that they BOTH will be scouraged BUT only the man seems to have his sins forgiven
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. Last edited by afro-elf : 11-11-2001 at 05:34 AM. |
|||
11-11-2001, 11:49 AM | #113 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 47
|
Just because afro-elf has strong views and doesn't use capital letters, does not mean he is flaming. I haven't seen anything approaching flaming in his messages - indeed, his posts are thoughtful and constructive. I certainly don't think he's done anything bannable.
|
11-11-2001, 12:00 PM | #114 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
thanks
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-11-2001, 10:37 PM | #115 |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Farthest Khand, the darkest East...
Posts: 442
|
It's interesting to note that Flood legends abound in every corner of the Earth, Hopi Indians, Inca, Aztec, Egypt, Hindu India, the Chinese......
Even Australian Aborigines have a Flood legend (something about a Giant Toad releasing all its water when tickled by an eel, flooding the earth). Must have been one heck of a Flood to leave imprints on all those cultures, neh? Some writers have said that it refers to the swift meltdown of the Ice Age, 15,000 years worth of ice melting in a single millennium or so. |
11-11-2001, 10:49 PM | #116 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
think about all the civilizations you just named
how many developed around rivers think about the present day US there is something called flood SEASON geo evidence supports many local floods but not a massive global flood
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-11-2001, 10:57 PM | #117 |
The man
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
|
Actually there's plenty of great evidence, which I'll outline when I'm not so tired
|
11-11-2001, 11:51 PM | #118 |
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
i patiently await
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
11-12-2001, 12:06 PM | #119 |
The man
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: MA
Posts: 4,572
|
Ok, let's start with the techtonic plates. According to the bible water didn't just rain down from heaven, it also came up from the earth. It is certainly possible that there was a great amount of water below of the surface of the planet, and that it shot up out of the ground, sendin gthe plates moving on their courses. The Great Rift (do I even have the name right? Long time since I've looked into this) makes this theory even look true.
Now let's look at the fossil record. For years systems such as carbon dating have been used, despite the fact that tests on these systems have proved they can be innacurate by thousands and thousands of years. Also, there are locations where (I am dead serious about this) fossilized trees can be seen going up straight through many layers of the fossil record! If the record built up over the period of thousands or millions of years this could not be possible. It is much more likely that it was created in one swift, instantanious moment, such as a great delluge. And lets not forget that what certainly appears to be an ark can actually be seen in satellite photographs of Mount Ararat! |
11-12-2001, 06:39 PM | #120 | |||
Hoplite Nomad
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 3,931
|
Quote:
tectonic plate theory DOES NOT have to do with water. it has to do with molten magma it takes millions of years not forty days Quote:
darth i think the closer in time to the present the more accurate the carbon dating take the stroud of turin. it is a fake it has been dated to the time of da vinci. even if it was 1,000 years off if it still WAY to recent to be the burial ropes of JC now going back further in time a few thousand years in a 100 million plus time scale is a minor deviation Quote:
your wording misrepresents the situation it is not as if the tree was thrust through the fossil layers if the tree died in one era the sediment and fossil record just built up around it. once again i guess this is becoming a catch phrase there is a consilence of knowledge that supports this. it is not built upon one single observartion that would send it crashing down they say that when the flood receded, Noah and his zoo were perched upon the top of Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Presumably, at that time, all the animals dispersed to the far recesses of the earth. How the animals got to the different continents, we are not told. Perhaps they floated there on debris. More problematic, I think is how so many species survived when they had been reduced to just one pair or seven pairs of creatures. Also, you would think that the successful species which had the furthest to travel, would have left a trail of offspring along the way. What evidence is there that all species originated in Turkey? That's what the record should look like if the ark landed on Mt. Ararat Still, none of this deters the true believer from maintaining that the story of Noah's ark is the God's truth. Nor does it deter those who think the ark has been found. For example, in 1977 a pseudo-documentary called "In Search of Noah's Ark" was played on numerous television stations and CBS showed a special in 1993 entitled, "The Incredible Discovery of Noah's Ark." The first is a work of fiction claiming to be a documentary. The second was masterminded by George Jammal, who has admitted that the story was a hoax. Jammal said he wanted to expose religious frauds. His hoax was seen by about 20 million people, most of whom probably still do not know that Jammal did not want them to take it seriously. During his show, Jammal produced what he called "sacred wood" from the ark, which he later admitted was wood taken from railroad tracks in Long Beach, California, which he had hardened by cooking in an oven. He also prepared other fake wood by frying a piece of California pine on his kitchen stove in a mix of wine, iodine, sweet-and-sour and teriyaki sauces. He also admitted that he had never been to Turkey. The program was produced by Sun International Pictures, based in Salt Lake City, and responsible for several pseudo-documentaries on Nostradamus, the Bermuda Triangle, the Shroud of Turin, and UFOs. Stories of floods are not unique to the ancient Jews.* What geological or archaeological evidence is there of such a universal destruction of all human societies, all plants and all animals except for the ones on Noah's boat (or Ziusudra's [Sumeria], or Utnapishtim's [Babylon])? There should be a layer of sediment dating from the same time which contains all the bones of these poor creatures. There should be evidence that all human societies were wiped out simultaneously. No such evidence exists of a universal flood. as i provided a site with the flaws of the bible I will now give one with the flaws of the flood story http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
__________________
About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
|||
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
What All Was Wrong with PJ's LOTR | Wally | Lord of the Rings Movies | 425 | 08-14-2016 08:43 AM |
They'd never say that! (part 2) | jammi567 | Middle Earth | 126 | 01-17-2014 06:03 PM |
Lord of the Rings Discussion Project. Chapters II & III | Telcontar_Dunedain | LOTR Discussion Project | 24 | 12-13-2007 07:52 PM |
Lyrd of the Ryngs - Return of Good Architecture | Grey_Wolf | RPG Forum | 214 | 09-22-2006 02:35 AM |
They'd never say that! | Samwise Gamgee | Lord of the Rings Books | 1001 | 07-01-2006 12:12 PM |