07-06-2003, 02:57 AM | #101 | |||||
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Now, let's look again at the different symptoms of long term radiation contact. Cancer, impaired fertility, and shortened life span. Quote:
I don't need a World Book quote to demonstrate that it is middle aged persons and the elderly that are less likely to successfully bear children- we all know it. And shortened life span also is a symptom. Is it not conceivable then, that by a dramatic change in the radiocarbon levels on the planet, ages might be greatly reduced from what they once were? I'm going to miss this thread when, the day after tomorrow, I have to go back to school for a week and not post on Entmoot . |
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07-06-2003, 10:50 AM | #102 | |
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Genesis 7:11 -- "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month -- on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened." The 'springs of the great deep' seem to indicate that not only did the water come from the sky, but also from within the Earth.
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07-06-2003, 01:38 PM | #103 | |
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07-06-2003, 01:51 PM | #104 | |
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-06-2003, 03:09 PM | #105 | ||||
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Look at the history of metal: Quote:
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I could look up those other subjects you mentioned, but they all seem to simply demonstrate further: For hundreds of thousands of years man used his incredible brain resources to do virtually nothing, while within incredibly recent history (relatively speaking), vast quantities of knowledge have been uncovered. Man suddenly started using his mind. I don't think this makes sense. Man of the past was just as clever as man of the present, by the evolutionary model. How come we hear so little about that man doing anything of relevance? Why is there this huge incongruency between what prehistoric man did during his vast tracts of time, while we have discovered just about everything within our tiny slot of 5000 years? |
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07-06-2003, 04:47 PM | #106 | |
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Airplanes and cars allowed for increase of knowledge transfer - instead of having to be months at sea - we can now get to Europe in 6 hours. Computers allow us to design things which would be impossible to design without them. Computers are the key advance that has created such a huge increase in techonogy - all you have to do is look at cell phones, palm pilots, etc. You seem to act that man should have been able to create a computer, without knowing how to make a pencil first.
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07-06-2003, 05:00 PM | #107 | |
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And after Industrial Revolution, Man could discover and invent things even faster.
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07-06-2003, 05:07 PM | #108 |
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Again, Jerseydevil, you're completely missing the point. The farthest back discoveries with metal date to about 3500 BC. It took us about 5000 years to get as far as we have now. Not some hundreds of thousands, or millions of years. So why did we create everything so quickly, in comparison with the sluggish rate of creation? Again, like Sheeana, you seem to think I'm complaining about our having to carve on stones before we write with pens. But that is completely missing the point, which is that just about all invention has taken place within the last 5000 or so years. Movement from crude tools up through various stages of development to where we are now, all happened within about 5000 or so years. Where is the development prior to that? And if there is none, or incredibly little, why does that exist?
You see, it's a difficulty in the Theory of Evolution. It's like having a species of carnivors not using their teeth, having humans go for hundreds of thousands of years without using their brains to learn new things. If you want to argue that they were developing things just as we are now, you'll have to show me what they did. I looked up some of the different things Cirdan said, and none of the beginnings of those branches of knowledge have been going on for very long, in comparison with the vast gap of time. |
07-06-2003, 05:23 PM | #109 |
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Jersey you mentioned several things of interest. One was the reference to an evolutionary purpose in everything, and how evolution does not rely on chance. First off I want to ask you...what evolutionary purpose does a sunset or leaves changing in autumn have? I mean why are they so spectacular and beautiful and what purpose does that beauty have in furthering our evolution?
2nd you mentioned Leif and I being blind to our faith. God has nothing against us studying evolution, but it is such a garbled, unsteady, and changeable theory that often one gets lost in trying to get into the details. How can something so reasonable (as you put it) as evolution be so garbled unless someone blind to their need for God put it together? 3rd you mentioned new species. If Evolution is true then why is it that we don't find transitional species in the fossil record? A bird species CAN change the shape of it's bill, it happens, and has been proven scientifically, but just a change of bill does not mean that the birds are going to become another species of bird, or another completely different animal. 4th you asked where the water from the flood went. Into the ocean. The rise from the flood waters covered parts of the earth, huge ice caps formed due to drastic changes in the weather (we can agree that something catastrophic changed the weather). I just want to know...what is the point for this debate which is "evolving" into an arguement? I think that the idea for this thread to be able to give us creationists a chance to give OUR ideas on the earths origins and to support them without having to answer 2 billion evolutionists in the process. And I would like to remind you that this is a debate thread...not a Hobbit walking party created for the amusement of those who are not furthering the debate, but are only adding to the confusion. Cheers all, Sam.
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07-06-2003, 05:24 PM | #110 | |
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In tribes, there are levels of heirarchy also, and the development of medicines has always been going on. Indians learned to use all the different parts of the buffalo. The tribes learned, even if they learned more slowly than we can now, because we are provided with large amounts of time. Also, planting crops has been going on for a long time and in various parts of the world. The Indians planted corn before they contacted white men, and the white men also knew how to plant, though they planted grain that originated in central Asia, Asia Minor, and Egypt between 5000 and 7000 BC. The earliest Indian corn cobs are believed to date to 10,000 BC, while there are more at 7000 BC. Again, two recent discoveries, in different places. Different tribes also likely had heirarchies, as I said, and do you think the women and children had to likewise be busy all the time? I know they had a harder time than we do now, and that might help explain any increase in technological learning over the past very recent centuries. But even the earliest major learning is within a relatively recent ballpark, still ignoring those hundreds of thousands-or millions-of years. Are you saying that for hundreds of thousands of years, hunting took too much time for man to learn? However, I thank you very much, Jonathan, for trying to offer a rational explanation for the mystery. It shows that you have an understand the problem I'm trying to present, which means I might be able to stop rewriting it soon . |
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07-06-2003, 05:31 PM | #111 |
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Samwise, I think they do have a right to question our theories or opinions, and to try to poke holes in them. If what we bring up cannot stand up when questioned, it's not worth our supporting.
Also, the reason they'd give for why you don't see the fish transforming into frogs is that they change very slowly. |
07-06-2003, 05:34 PM | #112 |
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LE, how old is that world book, anyway?
The Sumerians were very advanced 10,000 years ago. Sumer Map
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-06-2003 at 05:35 PM. |
07-06-2003, 05:35 PM | #113 |
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Ah, good points. And I changed one of those...the frog thing because I thought about it awhile and realized what you posted was right...but I don't want to talk about that because it's no longer in my post.
Cheers, Sam.
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07-06-2003, 05:50 PM | #114 | |||
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A sunset is an abiotic factor and itself doesn't have an evolutionary purpose. Changing leaves are something that have developped thanks to evolution. The purpose of the leaves is to make the trees live and stay alive. Quote:
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07-06-2003, 06:08 PM | #115 | |||||
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Also- where did I say the word "reasonable"? And why is god necessary? Quote:
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07-06-2003, 06:21 PM | #116 |
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I don't like the term "transitional species" since it can easily be missunderstood. It's not that all the species that live now are perfect, because they too are "transitional". They'll probably not be the same species in the future, since they'll continue to evolve.
I've heard creationists say "there are no fossils of transitional species" before. That is not true. Of course it's quite rare to find fossils of the same animal but at different stages in it's evolution. But the horse is a good example. Fossils of the early horses have been found and we have been able to follow the animals developpment through time. Many say that the horse fossils are not a good example of "transitional species", but there are other fossils tfrom other animals as well that proves there really existed "transitional species" in the past.
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07-06-2003, 06:37 PM | #117 | |
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Man had the brain capacity for millenium to make computers - but we didn't have the experience or background knowledge necessary.
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07-06-2003, 06:43 PM | #118 | ||
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Also, unless you have information that demonstrates differently, Indians learning to plant corn didn't necessarily have huge improvement over Indians living in hunting lifestyle. Sure, it certainly helped them, but I don't see our learning about crops as having been the trigger for all technology. One would think that over hundreds of thousands of years, humanity would have learned to hunt very, very, well. Think of all that time! I really don't think that's taking the proportions of the problem into consideration. We are an incredibly clever species. We have done a huge amount within a tiny amount of time, on an evolutionary scale. People think. People then thought . . . unless they weren't people. Quote:
Again, the post-Solomon books of the Old Testament have been proved accurate by multiple archaeological and documentary findings, and by corroboration with accounts from other countries of the period. Back to Joseph, I can give you strong evidence for the Bible's validity, though it would take me a long time to make such a presentation, multiple posts, because of the nature of the material. The Creation story is the primary thing that hasn't checked out, and yet we see validation with scientific discoveries (the flood and break-up of the continents) as well, just at different times. You have said yourself that you don't question much the historical validity of the Bible. I can give you detailed information on how the manuscripts were preserved to us, and how we know the Old Testament is genuine, and still as it was originally written. The processes the writers went through to keep the books exactly as they had been eliminate all possibility of error. They were quoted in religious services. People of the New Testament times believed completely in their authority and accuracy. They were referred to by Jesus multiple times in his arguments with the Pharisees, as an authority. Numerous Atheists have turned Christian because of the overwhelming evidence in support of the reliability of the Scriptures. What qualms, precisely, do you have with them? What evidence do you have that they're incorrect or mythological? Uh . . . it would be nice if you answered this question in the Offshoot thread. Last edited by Lief Erikson : 07-06-2003 at 06:45 PM. |
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07-06-2003, 06:52 PM | #119 | |
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You can look back in history. Before the Industrial Revolution, men did not increase rapidly in numbers. At times, the human population on the planet decreased. For example, half of Europe's population died due to the plage in the Middle Ages. When the Industrial Revolution saw the light of the day, men suddenly got what they needed to start increasing really fast and truly exponentially. This was not possible before the Revolution, and certainly not possible during man's time as a hunter.
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07-06-2003, 06:54 PM | #120 |
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The existence of many hunting and gathering tribes during all the technological development begs the question. If humans are so smart why do some develop technology and some do not? They presumably had the same amount of time. Why do cultures invent different things at different rates? If technology is inevitable and must proceed at some defined rate then these differences are inexplicable. Technology was given more impetus in some places than others due to declines in game, population pressures, geography, variations in contact with other civilizations with which to exchange ideas, languages, etc. An exellent overview on why cultures vary in technology is Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |