08-24-2004, 10:38 PM | #101 | |||||||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-25-2004, 02:33 AM | #102 | ||||
Elf Lord
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What we're arguing for is that we should be allowed to make lobbies based upon our own worldviews (whether they're Christian or not). We should be allowed also to make lobbies whether those lobbies are wrong or not. Other legal means have already been built into our court systems and law books to protect people from wrong lobbies or lobbies that unfairly infringe upon peoples' freedoms. These laws should be utilized for the defense of the people or organization that's under attack. They may stand or they may fail, depending upon the court ruling. But the lobby should be allowed to be made. That's the way our court system works right now, and I'm glad it works that way. It doesn't discriminate against religious or nonreligious people because of what their worldviews are. Religious people are allowed to lobby, endeavoring to infringe upon other peoples' rights and so are the nonreligious. There are laws that can be brought to bear for the defense of someone who's being unfairly treated. Those laws should be made use of. However, the lobby should be allowed to be made, whether it fails or succeeds. Refusal to accept that someone can lobby what they want would cause massive discrimination to enter into the system.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2004, 06:06 AM | #103 | |
Elf Lord
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I didn't mean it as a criticism. I was ironically referring to your use of a relativist argument (that everybody's worldview is equally valid) in support of an absolutist worldview. That is, my intention was to question whether you genuinely believe that non-Christian worldviews are just as valid as your own. I admit I was teasing you there; sorry if I upset you, Rian. It probably wasn't the best way of making that kind of point in an open forum, so I apologise for being facetious. I also respect your opinion and your friendly and open style of expressing yourself. Back on topic, I'm not worried when people put forward a religious rationale for things like health care, as long as they're open and honest about it, as it seems Lief and Rian both are. I think that people can then make up their own minds about how to direct what we do WRT stopping the massive death and misery that is ruining entire countries as you read this. What worries me is when it happens in an underhand way. As well as being (as far as I understand the US constitution) unconstitutional, it's also a kind of fundamentalism that I associate with states like Iran. Last edited by The Gaffer : 08-25-2004 at 06:15 AM. |
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08-25-2004, 01:46 PM | #104 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-25-2004, 03:25 PM | #105 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I don't believe that everyone's worldview is CORRECT (if that's what you mean by "valid"). I believe that unless you want to throw logic and reason out the door, that only ONE worldview can be correct. However, I believe that the evidences for all worldviews, including atheism and agnosticism, are of the same TYPE (i.e., non-proveable in a scientific way, altho parts can be supported or disproved by science), and it is hypocritical and illogical to separate so-called "religious" beliefs from beliefs like atheism or agnosticism, since they are all based on the same type of evidence. And I also am able to do something that I haven't seen anyone else be able to do here yet - I can assume, temporarily, that someone's worldview is true, and then evaluate the deductions they make from it. For example, IF atheism is true, THEN "homosexuality is not wrong" would be a completely logically valid conclusion, IMO. And when I state from MY worldview that homosexuality is wrong, people can't seem to get out of their particular worldview to evaluate that statement from MY worldview. Do you see what I mean? It is LOGICALLY TRUE that if MY worldview is correct (and again, I admit that I could be wrong, altho I think I'm right) that HOMOSEXUALITY is WRONG. And yet people are unwilling to admit that, altho I admit their conclusions are correct if their worldview is correct. Personally, I think that I'm more openminded than anyone else here, because I'm willing to assume that other worldviews are true and think about what that means, and also because I say over and over that I think people should vote however they think is right, even if I disagree with them. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 08-25-2004 at 03:26 PM. |
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08-25-2004, 03:46 PM | #106 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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As I said in the other thread, I'm perfectly willing to say that I could be wrong in my worldview. I'm also perfectly willing to say that IF your worldview is right, THEN gay marriage is NOT harmful to anyone. Now I would hope, as an agnostic, that you're perfectly willing to say that MY worldview could be right. And IF my worldview is right, then gay marriage is VERY harmful, because of the reasons that I listed in the Gay/Les thread. Can you agree with that? Or are you unwilling to say that my viewpoint might be correct? Quote:
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Do you understand the difference? You say to me, basically, that I'm wrong and I shouldn't vote against gay marriage. I say to you that I think you're wrong, but if you think it's right then you SHOULD vote for gay marriage, altho I'll vote against it because I think it's wrong. That's a huge difference, IMO, and my way sure seems more openminded and tolerant. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 08-25-2004 at 03:50 PM. |
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08-25-2004, 03:49 PM | #107 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-25-2004, 03:54 PM | #108 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think I'm right, but am willing to admit I could be wrong and he could be right. I don't see that opinion coming from him in this area, and I was asking him about it. Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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08-25-2004, 03:57 PM | #109 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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08-25-2004, 04:48 PM | #110 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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agnosticism says, 'we can not know for sure' which i think even you have agreed with in the past
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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08-25-2004, 05:04 PM | #111 |
Elf Lord
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Isn't that a belief without evidence, though? "We cannot know for sure"? Something taken on faith? Thereby something similar to religion?
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
08-25-2004, 05:23 PM | #112 |
the Shrike
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Deviating a bit from topic, guys.
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08-25-2004, 06:35 PM | #113 | |||
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And frankly, I think that anyone who says they are 100% sure that their particular belief system IS true is either lying or not thinking straight. Based on tons and TONS of accumulated evidence over the 30 years that I've been a Christian, I really think that Christianity, as stated in the Bible, reflects the actual truth of things. Yet I can't say I'm 100% sure - I can only say that I very, very strongly think it's true, and that no other belief system that I've evaluated has even come CLOSE to dealing with the reality of things that I can see (and really, I think we need to evaluate things first-hand and not just take someone else's word for it). Also, I find that in terms of consistency and logical deductions, nothing else can come close to Christianity. That's why it's my OPINION that it's true. But I'm freely willing to admit that I could be wrong. Quote:
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BoP, I think this discussion is VERY relevant, because people base their opinions on this subject on their worldviews. And as far as my personal views, I'll say again: I think BOTH abstinence and using condoms should be discussed. I think that the TRUTH should be presented, which includes the fact that using condoms is NOT "safe sex", but is "safer sex than not using anything". I would be FURIOUS if I got an STD while using a condom if someone in authority told me it was safe. The truth also includes the fact that some people want to remain abstinent but feel pressured into having sex earlier than they want to, and if abstinence was presented as a viable option, it would help them achieve something they WANT to achieve. Now based on my worldview, altho I think that sex outside of marriage is harmful, I also love the people that think it's right. And I think that condom use is helpful, so I would like to have condom use presented, too. But TRUTHFULLY, not falsely and idealistically. I think the truth is very important, and teens, esp., deserve to hear it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 08-25-2004 at 06:38 PM. |
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08-25-2004, 11:10 PM | #114 | ||||
Quasi Evil
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When white supremists or their ilk talk about killing minorities and what all because they feel its best for our society you don’t politely clap your hands and say that’s great if you sincerely feel that way then I support your right to choose the way YOU want to live. No you scream to the rafters that YOU ARE WRONG. that you are misguided and misinformed and you combat the very notion that these ideas are somehow legitimate. Evidently you think I should be ok with that kind of thinking. Well I reject the notion whole heartedly. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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08-26-2004, 12:23 AM | #115 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Well said IR! I don't care what your "worldveiw" is...telling homosexuals they can't marry is discrimination. Plain and simple.
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Happy Atheist Go Democrats! Last edited by Lizra : 08-26-2004 at 12:26 AM. |
08-26-2004, 01:10 AM | #116 | ||||||||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Why would I think I'm "doing them a favor by discriminating against them"? I'm NOT discriminating against them. People define parameters of marriage according to what they think best for society. Are you discriminating against a woman by telling her she can't marry her brother or her father? Quote:
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Now please get your quotes right if you're going to quote me. Don't attribute things to me that I never said. Quote:
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One difference here, though, is that I have the courtesy to NOT call your opinions a "fantasy". Another difference is I'm openminded and grant that you might be right, so I think you should have a vote on ANY type of subject, even if I disagree with YOUR OPINION.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 08-26-2004 at 01:24 AM. |
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08-26-2004, 01:15 AM | #117 | |||
Elf Lord
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Insidious Rex, do you believe that some people should be kept from lobbying because of why they're doing it? Should religious people be kept from even attempting to make law, or should they be battled by normal legal means, civil rights and minority rights? Perhaps you should fight against religious people, but they be stopped from even being able to take a political stance from their belief systems? Currently in America everyone has the right to vote or attempt to make law, no matter what beliefs they're coming from. Do you think that what we have now is right, or should new discriminatory laws be added that keep people from voting because of what their personal beliefs are? It looks to RĂ*an and me that you are in favor of new discrimination laws being created in America that keep certain people from voting for what they think is right. Naturally we're arguing fiercely against you.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-26-2004, 01:29 AM | #118 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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Why bother trying to legislate something that is "wrong"?
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08-26-2004, 01:30 AM | #119 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-26-2004, 01:34 AM | #120 |
Domesticated Swing Babe
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That would be called "error"! Storms are making my satellite connection painfully slow. Good night.
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